Subnostr

I understand the principle, but are there some measurable yardsticks where an economy crosses the line into socialism your opinion? For instance, is any form of taxation socialism? Are zoning laws socialism? Is public transport socialism?

Undisciplined 2y ago

Yes, to all of those. The measurable yardstick is the state claiming the ultimate right of decision making about how property is used.

Remember that socialism is about ownership and ownership means final say in usage. It's not about how extreme or seemingly innocuous the state's ownership claims are.

I suppose in theory there could be a truly mixed economy, but there would have to be certain property rights that the state doesn't ultimately claim. That would mean that even if the entire state apparatus were arrayed against a property owner, the property owner would still get their way.

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DataNostrum 2y ago

Well, if any infringement of ownership means socialism, I suppose that means you consider that no capitalist economy exists.

But that would pose huge practical challenges. For instance, how do you decide on ownership? It needs to be agreed upon somehow, and people will have disagreements on who owns what. How does the entity that settles ownership disputes get the resources needed to do so?

Undisciplined 2y ago

Firstly, I don't think any capitalist society exists and I don't think that should be very controversial if we're taking the meaning of terms seriously.

Secondly, you're right about there being different views of ownership and I would consider a society to be capitalist if the only government actions were either voluntary or seeking to resolve property claims between private citizens.

Thirdly, an entity that settles ownership claims would have to get its resources from consenting people in a capitalist society (or produce them from natural resources).

Again, I'm talking about the meaning of terms. Viability of systems is a different subject. If you want a long ass reading list for how a capitalist society could work, I can provide that.

DataNostrum 2y ago

I think it's controversial to say that no capitalist economy exists or has ever existed, because it's a term that is used to describe existing economies. In the same way that I don't agree with people who say that "true socialism/communism has never been tried". Maybe not according to some textbook definition, but close enough to know what it smells like. That's why I like the idea of yardsticks/litmus tests.

I'm always interested in reading lists but not long ass ones 😄. What are your top 1-2 recs?

Undisciplined 2y ago

That's a completely fair position. I just wanted to drive home that a lot of ink has been spilled on this question and I probably couldn't do it justice in an exchange of notes.

Bob Murphy is one of my favorite thinkers. Here's a pretty short introduction that he wrote a while ago: https://mises.org/library/possibility-private-law

Btw, I hear you on the "Real _____ has never been tried." point. The distinction I would make is between "market" economies and "capitalist" societies. There are market economies (which I would identify by whether prices are dictated or emergent) where the state still ultimately claims ownership over everything, but decisions are generally made by private citizens, rather than a state planner. Capitalist vs socialist is about ownership, whereas market vs planned is about decision making.