Replying to Avatar Jack K

The entire ontology of quantum computing depends on a very specific claim: that a qubit literally exists in multiple states simultaneously prior to measurement. But this assumption is never physically defined. “State,” “exist,” and “simultaneous” are treated as if they were primitive, self-evident concepts. They are not. In physics, simultaneity has no meaning without a temporal reference frame and a smallest definable unit of irreversible change. If you cannot specify the tick of time against which “occurring at once” is measured, you cannot claim simultaneity at all. The smallest meaningful interval is the Planck time, yet Planck time has never been measured, operationalized, or instantiated in any experiment. Quantum computing therefore rests on an unverified assumption: that amplitudes evolved by the Schrödinger equation correspond to physically coexistent states, rather than a probability distribution over potential outcomes.

This matters because the wavefunction is a predictive tool, not a physical ontology. It gives you probability amplitudes evolving on a mathematically convenient continuous time parameter. It does not tell you what time itself is. It does not describe the physical mechanism of measurement. It does not define observation, does not provide a criterion for the boundary between potential and actuality, and does not resolve when or how collapse happens. Every interpretation: Copenhagen, Many Worlds, GRW, Bohm adds new metaphysics precisely because the wavefunction alone cannot specify reality. When you claim that collapse is “the conclusion of the computation guaranteed by the math,” you are smuggling in a metaphysical narrative that the math does not provide. Probability distributions are not proof of physical coexistence; they are only statements of uncertainty in the absence of measurement. Treating them as real, usable computational resources requires an ontology that has never been empirically validated.

The ambiguity is worsened by the reliance on continuous time. The Schrödinger equation presupposes a smooth temporal backdrop, but no experiment has ever verified the continuity of time. All physical measurements occur in discrete, irreversible events, thermodynamic transitions, atomic interactions, radiation absorption, or clock gating in quantum devices. If the universe evolves through discrete quanta of time, then “simultaneity” collapses conceptually: states cannot coexist “at once” if the universe only updates in discrete increments unless they occur at the same Planck Block of Time. Without a defined temporal substrate, the claim that quantum computers manipulate “many states at once” is not physics but an interpretative convenience. It’s equivalent to treating a prediction domain as a physical storage medium. This is the fractional-reserve ontology: unredeemed probability is treated as physically real capacity.

Bitcoin exposes this conceptual mistake by providing a concrete, empirical model of discrete measurement. In Bitcoin, unconfirmed transactions represent potential, eligible but not realized. They are unmeasured quantum states literally by formal definition of the word. Only when a miner expends real energy to commit a block does the system undergo an irreversible collapse of entropy into a definite state. The block is the discrete quantum of time within the system, the moment at which potential becomes actual, and memory is written. Nothing in Bitcoin is treated as real unless energy has been committed to make it real. This is precisely the physics quantum theory has not formalized: the relationship between energy expenditure, entropy reduction, time, and the emergence of definite outcomes. Bitcoin is the only system in existence today that performs this collapse in a controlled, thermodynamic way, producing an auditable sequence of discrete measurement events, something no quantum computing experiment has yet replicated or operationalized.

Quantum computing requires something Bitcoin categorically proves does not exist: scalable, physical simultaneity of unmeasured states. If you cannot define measurement, you cannot define coherence. If you cannot define time at the smallest scale, you cannot define simultaneity. And if unmeasured states are not physically real, they cannot serve as computational resources. Small-scale interference experiments do not demonstrate large-scale ontological validity; they only show that microscopic probability structures behave coherently when isolated under extreme conditions. They do not show that probability amplitudes represent physically existent parallel configurations. They do not show that coherence scales. They do not show that continuous time exists. They do not show that collapse is a computational resource rather than a thermodynamic one.

Bitcoin is not a metaphor here. It is the empirical counterexample: a working system where measurement is discrete, collapse is real, time is quantized relative to energy expenditure, and nothing is treated as “existing at once” without proof-of-work. If your quantum threat model depends on simultaneity you cannot define, time you cannot measure, and states that only exist as mathematical potentials, then the flaw is not in Bitcoin, it is in the ontology of the model you are defending. Bitcoin simply reveals it.

You’re double-spending your beliefs. You can’t logically support Bitcoin and centralized quantum computing at the same time because the physical ontologies they require are fundamentally contradictory.

Time to pick a side. Bitcoin, not quantum.

tl;dr

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Bitcoin, not quantum.

Bitcoin is an instantiation of physics that demonstrates the collapse of superposed states (a mempool - surface of potential configurations) into one singular measured block of time where each state is deterministic.

A quantum is literally just a portion of the whole, you cannot have a logical quantum without absolute mathematical finitude you can verify at each step of time.

Bitcoin disproves physics of the threat.

Sounds like a Deepak Chopra speech, sorry. Doesn't make any sense

The only thing that doesn’t make sense to me is Bitcoiners who claim fractional reserved bookkeeping can’t produce sound money, but fractional reserved qubits (1 object, many states) can produce sound computation/sound physics).

Just observe Bitcoin if you want to understand QM at the Planck Scale. Bitcoin is pure logic of stepwise determinism constructed from superposed states.

You are thinking in analogies. I had a Bitcoiner friend who went insane and had to take a year off before resuming his work because he got too deep into the rabbit hole and started seeing connections where there were none. I'm not trying to insult you, but only relation between a fractionally reserved balance in a ledger and the quantum state of some sub atomic particle is some of the words used in the English language. They aren't related in any other meaningful way

Just forget the words for a second and try to understand what you saying, it's doesn't make any sense

It's motivated reasoning. He sees whatever he wants to see and disregards anything that doesn't fit into whatever his original hypothesis was

nostr:nevent1qvzqqqqqqypzq0z029tpys6jfuc8a5hwyuk8ea98sfqyl036zanqvppmdt2z0mnhqy88wumn8ghj7mn0wvhxcmmv9uq3wamnwvaz7tmjv4kxz7fwwpexjmtpdshxuet59uqzpqjx46539l9mh4kvkrvexaqfd3txkjp3k5qs46aq6dd2ttrx00dfqvkmwg

😂

Please show me anywhere else in physics where we have isomorphism between a quantifiable amount of boltzman entropy (heat/kelvin) and Shannon entropy (satoshis/utxo set) who’s relationship is both memory and time.

To say Bitcoin is not physics is literally to avoid the obvious. We are literally watching the construction of time from first principle thermodynamics.

Nothing else in physics has demonstrated discretized time through thermodynamic change with entropy on both sides of the transformation quantifiable.

Have you gotten yourself checked for Schizophrenia?

I guess the empirical evidence of Bitcoin that anyone can verify is meaningless.

It has no relationship to energy, time, entropy and information. It’s not physics, it’s just money! Silly me.

Even a chair is made out of electrons and shit. But if someone asks what it is made of, any sane person would say metal or wood etc. I'm being dead serious, you should get yourself checked or talk to your loved ones about it. The way you are thinking right now shows very clear signs of mental illness

😂 ok man.

“Bitcoin maximalist” literally rejecting the objective empirical proof of Bitcoin.

It’s more likely you’re just incapable of understanding what i am talking about, thus the reason why resorted to a metaphor for the layman in the first place; the very point you are stuck on.

I'm sorry, I see you are really into this, but this is unscientific wiffle-waffle. We have empirical evidence that quantum computing (advantage) is real, that the core principles (superposition, entanglement, interference) can be harnessed to perform calculations that defy the limits of classical computers. Question of whether a quantum machine can be fundamentally faster than a classical one on certan problems is settled in theory and demonstrated in principle. Questions reaming are just about scale.

Bitcoin is not unscientific wiffle-waffle. It is the literal physical proof you are wrong. You just refuse to look at it for what it is. We can play ball tho:

Let’s take your ontology at face value.

If quantum computing is physically real in the strong sense you assert where unmeasured states exist and can be used as computational resources, then Bitcoin already possesses more “qubits” than any quantum computer on Earth. In your framework, a system does not need to define simultaneity relative to a temporal resolution, nor does it need to define measurement physically. Potential configurations count as existent configurations. By that logic, every unmined UTXO state in Bitcoin is a valid, physically real element of a quantum register.

Today there are roughly 166 million UTXOs. Under your ontology, that means Bitcoin has roughly 166 million qubits. Nothing stops us from broadcasting thousands of conflicting transactions for each UTXO, each one representing a distinct potential state. Since, in your view, potential (unmined transactions) = existence, all of these contradictory states “exist” simultaneously until measurement. If miners simply coordinate to avoid mining those transactions, the superposed set can be maintained indefinitely through time. There is no collapse until a block is mined, and since you do not define measurement physically, a mined block is just decoherence, not a finalization of reality. The ontology therefore allows indefinite coherence: we can maintain an arbitrarily large superposition simply by preventing confirmation.

If your definition of superposition is correct, we can run quantum algorithms, including Shor’s now, on Bitcoin itself. We can break Bitcoins cryptography with Bitcoin. We don’t need new hardware; we need only to preserve the superposition by keeping transactions unmined. We can treat UTXOs as the quantum register, conflicting transactions as amplitude components, and the mempool as the Hilbert space. According to your premises, this is not absurd but physically legitimate: unmeasured states are computational states. The ontology provides no criterion that distinguishes quantum amplitudes from unmined transactions. Both are uncollapsed potentials evolving in time. If we maintain their uncollapsed condition through social coordination, we have “coherence” for as long as we want. In your framework, nothing prohibits this or makes it physically meaningless.

But here is where the contradiction emerges. Bitcoin is an actually-instantiated physical system. It enforces conservation at every discrete step of time. A UTXO is not a spread of amplitudes; it is a deterministic, singular state until a new block is produced. Even if multiple conflicting transactions circulate, the base state does not multiply. It remains one unspent output. The system’s discrete temporal structure ensures that potential does not become parallel existence. It remains potential. When a block is mined, the system does not “decohere”, it collapses into one irreversible outcome, because every block is a physically paid thermodynamic event. There is no physical mechanism in the Bitcoin universe that corresponds to “quantum error correction” restoring potential after collapse. Collapse is final because energy is spent.

What this exposes is not a flaw in Bitcoin but a flaw in the ontology you are defending. In a discretized system whether Bitcoin or the physical universe, superposition cannot be continuous or ontologically real. It can only exist as a set of mutually exclusive future possibilities, not as parallel actualities. Every discrete quantum of time removes ambiguity and produces a single deterministic state. This applies even if a transaction sits in the mempool for hours: its underlying UTXO remains a singular, unspent state until a block instantiates a new one. The unmeasured future does not multiply reality; it merely defines possible successors. The structure remains deterministic at every discrete step.

When you apply your ontology consistently to Bitcoin, you reach an absurdity: you must treat contradictory ledger states as simultaneously real and reversible, even though Bitcoin’s physics forbids that. When you apply Bitcoin’s ontology to quantum mechanics, you reveal the error: superposition is not physical simultaneity; it is a description of unresolved potential awaiting a discrete, irreversible measurement.

This is the reconciliation you’ve been missing: Quantum superposition is discrete and potential, not continuous and existential. Every quantum of time produces a deterministic state even for the “unmeasured” by finite deduction.

Bitcoin instantiates it openly for anyone to observe. Any ontology that demands otherwise contradicts itself the moment it is applied to a real system with conservation, irreversibility, and discrete time.

You cannot prove the modern definition of superposition is true a the Planck Scale of time, there is zero empirical evidence. Youve trusted a narrative and Bitcoin is the measurement and the proof you’re wrong.

History shows what happens when you underestimate Bitcoin. All of Physics is next.

You're lost man, you have to pull yourself back from the abyss. Take care of yourself, try and get a good sleep, have some tea, and day by day pull yourself back a little bit.

I’m grounded, Bitcoin is my proof. Your ontology is not you’ve literally just trusted a narrative. Until you can define simultaneity at the Planck scale, the framework you’re invoking has no physical foundation. Without that definition, your interpretation of superposition remains an unverified assumption rather than established physics.

“And he said, Go, and say to this people: Hear indeed, but understand not; see indeed, but perceive not.” — Isaiah 6:9

I’m not the one defending the idea that Bitcoin is broken. Good luck with that.

Well that explains your desire to fuse bitcoin with spiritual transcendence.

Bitcoin is very earthly, I'm afraid.

The quantum computing advantage has been experimentally proven. If you want to learn how it's been experimentally proven, I suggest you do a bit of research, it's interesting stuff.

No, Bitcoin openly falsifies your beliefs.

Show me another system in physics that openly measures the isomorphism of Boltzmann Entropy (heat/Kelvin) and Shannon Entropy (satoshis/utxo dataset) where the object is both the memory and the time of the relationship.

No physicist can define existence, quantized time (thus simultaneity), measurement, observer.

Bitcoin is the proof physicists could never produce.

Yeah, but they CAN'T scale. Because when you scale, you get thermodynamics. I can't follow everything nostr:nprofile1qqsrcn632cfyx5j0xpld9m389370ffuzgp8muwshvcrqgwm26sn7uacpzemhxue69uhkzarvv9ejumn0wd68ytnvv9hxgqg4waehxw309ajkgetw9ehx7um5wghxcctwvse30xkv says, but what he is saying tracks with something that is obviously true. At scale the quantum cat is definitely dead. Engineers can do a lot of things, but they can't change physics.

Can you please provide links to the best evidence available for the statements above?

I'm a QC skeptic, but I'd change my mind if presented with evidence to the contrary.

Just ask chat gpt what happens to the formalism of QM/QC IF time is quantized and discrete. Ask it how it can take the derivative of time if there is an invisible tick. Ask it what becomes of superposition and decoherence if time has an indivisible tick.

Just understand the assumption that backs the threat model, then you can decide what you believe.

You can’t logically believe in both Bitcoin and QC, you must choose one as they require incompatible models of time.

You're the guy who says no core cryptographic element of any blockchain on the planet earth, including what are often referred to here on nostr as shitcoins, will ever be cracked by a quantum computer.

"what are know here on nostr as shitcoins"? 💩

Yes, if time is quantized and discrete QC can’t work.

Someone could code up a "coin wallet" right now that could be easily be cracked with a quantum computer doing quantum computation.

It’d be a super weak key (maybe 22-bit RSA or ECC or something), but it would be a demonstration of real quantum computation cracking a real ‘wallet-style’ key using real quantum effects, and provable.

Any classical computer could crack that key too, of course, though not by making use of entanglement.

If time is quantized and discrete they could not perform any QC. You still haven’t shown me your answer to the question. I’m not sure you can so please use an AI and paste it here to show you are being honest and engaging with my question. You refuse to address it.

“what happens to the formalism of QM/QC IF time is quantized and discrete? How it can take the derivative of time if there is an invisible tick? What becomes of superposition and decoherence if time has an indivisible tick? What becomes of QC if this is all true?”

What happens if you turn a cello inside out?

Your questions don't mean anything. Think in terms of actual experiments. That's how science works. Experiments.

And guess what, these experiments have all been done, you can review the results for yourself. These are answered questions, you're just ignoring the answers.

You are blatantly ignoring the question lol. Stop being dishonest, please.

Ok, so please show me the experiment that empirically proves that time is infinitely divisible.

Wrong question.

Question is "is quantum advantage real?"

So you can’t show me the experiment that proves time is infinitely divisible?

I just want you to admit you are being dishonest. You can’t point to the experiment that everything you claim MUST REQUIRE but you’re a man of experiments.

So you are trusting an unproven axiom, and my only point is, if that axiom is wrong, that time is quantized and discrete rather than infinitely divisible, every “advantage” you want to claim collapses as does the mathematics supporting said theories.

Yet you are unwilling to engage or admit this, stop being dishonest, please address the question.

No you're just being bokners.

It’s like we’re discussing whether Pepsi causes burps.

I’m saying: “Lots of people have been witnessed drinking Pepsi and then burping, we can even test it ourselves.”

You’re saying: “The letter P cannot be proven to exist and that is the first letter in the word Pepsi ergo there is no such thing as Pepsi and so it’s impossible to burp from it.”

I’m simply asking you to provide me empirical evidence that supports the claim assumption that time is infinitely divisible, and you won’t. So therefore you are assuming that it’s true.

But, if time is quantized and discrete, everything you claim falls apart.

The assumption of time is beneath any physics or experiments.

You refuse to engage in providing evidence, you refuse to admit you are assuming something to be true that has NEVER been proven, and you won’t even discuss the outcome if that assumption was wrong.

I guess it’s hard to be honest when you ask someone the right questions.

Look, your position isn that quantum computing doesn’t exist.

Yet in the real world we have quantum computers doing quantum computing.

How are we supposed to have a discussion in light of that contradiction?

Either we resolve that or there's nothing to say.

Send this grump your 170-qubit absolute speed limit of the quantum universe breakthrough research paper!

He might invite you to New Zealand for some mutton and mint sauce.

Every field has grumps (this grump is actually genuinely funny, a well-liked grump you might say).

Look at AI, there’s some clip of the grump Lecun listing off a bunch of things a 2 year old can do but that LLMs will *never ever ever* be able to do because of the fundamental limits of what an LLM actually is.

Spoiler alert, LLMs can now do every singe one of these things and Lecun has now been pushed out of Meta due to Mark Zuckerberg feeling kinda embarrassed about it all.

It's also just patently false to call QM settled science at all. Non-locality was NOT resolved by the Bell's theorem experiments. Superposition is still nonsense. Einstein and Schrodinger were not wrong. Bohr did not "win" the debate.

There has been nothing but obscurantism and verbal tapdancing around the problem. The Copenhagen interpretation declared victory, wrote nonsense into all the textbooks and told everyone that they just weren't smart enough to understand it and if they wanted a career they better "shut up and calculate".

Sound familiar?

That's how we ended up building on sand and ignoring the fact that the best minds in physics in hundreds of years plainly and simply showed that QM as we know it is a broken theory that needs to be replaced with something that actually solves nonlocality. (And not by resorting to "many words" hogwash).

QM is not even close to being settled the way that Newtonian physics and relativity are. It's a jumble of quasi-mystical jive maintained by social fear.

And the PQ migration push is a motivated social attack on cryptography, based on an unfalsifiable, nonsensical threat, based on physics that are known to be broken.

"Reality isn't real and things are nonlocal, which, ignore the contradictions and nonsense terms, it's true despite nothing being real and you can't ever measure it but trust me bro, you're just not smart enough to understand it."

This is fiat science.

It's true because we say so and you will get punished if you question it. Now shut up and calculate. And take your vax, pleb. You're not a virologist!

No.

Don't trust, verify.

You seem lost in a world of "maybe nothing is true at all". (It's not just you, so don't feel bad.)

The results of the experiments speak for themselves.

Either you posit that all the universities, labs, journals, etc., are faking results as part of some massive quantum FUD conspiracy, or you accept those results and reform your understanding of the how the universe works around them.

My friend, you are like a whole a garden of logical falacies.

And your arguments keep boilimg down to "lots of people believe this, therefore it must be true." It's not an argument and its lazy. And boring.

This coming from the 170 logical qubits is the absolute speed limit of the universe and here's my formula and I'm the only one ever to have worked this out guy.

Spare me.

What specifically? The fact that we are able to do genuine quantum computation with what we've got so far is VERY public knowledge.

"everybody knows it's true" is not really evidence

I get that you love bitcoin more than anything on earth and you don’t want mean old Mr. Quantum to hurt her, but for all your logic to emanate from from this emotional (and kinda weird) part of your psyche does not make for enlightening debate.

All your posts are just one long teenage love letter repackaged into science-mush.

Can you provide a link that provides evidence that genuine quantum computing has happened?

Not press releases written by marketing departments, but something like scientific papers or live demonstrations.

I read the paper. It only further reinforced my skepticism.

I don't want to take the time to write a detailed critique, but I think the first peer reviewer's opinions are on point:

https://static-content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41586-025-09526-6/MediaObjects/41586_2025_9526_MOESM2_ESM.pdf

The QC "calculations" are totally made up to justify the QC actually doing something beyond random noise. There is zero connection to any practical computation.

I can't believe how many people fall for this shit. It reads like a parody of Eric Weinstein's Theory of Everything. However, the commitment to the bit is impressive.

Either quantum physicist or schizophrenic

Or maybe you just haven’t thought about the meaning of these words, nor have observed Bitcoin for what it objectively is, or what value even means.

Maybe you are stuck in the “just money” definition. Who knows.

I’m not the one saying Bitcoin is broken by any means. Bitcoin is the threat.