Nostr Web Client

This was a very worthwhile podcast with nostr:nprofile1qqsyx708d0a8d2qt3ku75avjz8vshvlx0v3q97ygpnz0tllzqegxrtgpr9mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujumn0wdmksetjv5hxxmmd9uchr0qv and nostr:nprofile1qqs2xs05tluhtr6hpgsmqqxp04898gayjlyrjlexcrndv8j6el784xqpr9mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujumn0wdmksetjv5hxxmmd9ugxrggw because it opened the debate of credit in a future Bitcoin world 🙏

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7XhzXMSAPo&t=8410Not

It raises my eyebrow when Michael speaks of putting consumers' BTC into custody of "trustworthy banks" to earn yield 🤔

- Why would banks alone provide such services? In a real Bitcoin world, can't there be peer-to-peer, decentralized, self-custody borrowing and lending? Wouldn't that be worthwhile to build and support? It's being done, but the Bitcoiner resentment is strong.

It also makes me listen carefully when Saifedean responds that credit eventually only works with a lender of last resort and that with a deflationary currency credit will be less and less attractive over time.

- I would have loved if Michael had given Saifedean more opportunity to elaborate on that. However, at the moment, I also see credit as driver for economic activity, for sure in a transition period, but even in a Bitcoinized world. Interest rates play the role as the price of money. There won't be that massive fractional reserve lending anymore ... but still, especially on a peer-to-peer decentralized basis, simple lending and borrowing seem like natural activities, no?!

Now, even with Bitcoin as deflationary currency creating abundance in society through falling prices all around, wouldn't there still be the demand for credit finance? nostr:nprofile1qqsg86qcm7lve6jkkr64z4mt8lfe57jsu8vpty6r2qpk37sgtnxevjcpp4mhxue69uhkummn9ekx7mqpp3mhxue69uhkyunz9e5k7qgkwaehxw309ahx7um5wghx7mnnv968xtn0wfnsurtqc6

I think that's a highly relevant topic for Bitcoiners to wrap their head around and I'd be glad to read/hear more about it and go through possible scenarios 🙏

Seodan 1y ago 💬 7

Tl;dr

Fellow Bitcoiners,

After nostr:nprofile1qqs2xs05tluhtr6hpgsmqqxp04898gayjlyrjlexcrndv8j6el784xqpr9mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujumn0wdmksetjv5hxxmmd9ugxrggw recent appearance on nostr:nprofile1qqsyx708d0a8d2qt3ku75avjz8vshvlx0v3q97ygpnz0tllzqegxrtgpzpmhxue69uhkummnw3ezumt0d5hsvge3uc podcast, I'd love to see content openly and constructively debating how credit, even if decentralized and peer-to-peer, won't work and isn't a good idea in a hyperbitcoinized world. Leave the higher morale, the ridiculing memes aside and let's constructively onboard more people with uplifting and convincing ideas. Because that question pops up a lot.

I may not like it, but Michael Saylor has a realistic vision for a fiat world based on Bitcoin, one that most of his fellow entrepreneurs will appreciate. What's the vision of a "true, full potential, decentralized, deflationary" Bitcoin world? Can you share some good material? nostr:nprofile1qqsd3086elxcwhgevfgmp60u66fjl9swytj960nvcjxgnzgh42tkgkcppemhxue69uhkummn9ekx7mp07f6lda nostr:nprofile1qqsxu35yyt0mwjjh8pcz4zprhxegz69t4wr9t74vk6zne58wzh0waycpz9mhxue69uhkummnw3ezuamfdejj7qg4waehxw309ahx7um5wghx77r5wghxgetk9uq3samnwvaz7tmxd9k8getj9ehx7um5wgh8w6twv5hsj7hdd2

I appreciate the vision of nostr:nprofile1qqsg86qcm7lve6jkkr64z4mt8lfe57jsu8vpty6r2qpk37sgtnxevjcpp4mhxue69uhkummn9ekx7mqpp3mhxue69uhkyunz9e5k7qgkwaehxw309ahx7um5wghx7mnnv968xtn0wfnsurtqc6 a lot. Very different, but also Edan Yago has interesting thoughts.

Let's make it as imaginable as possible 🙏

Merci!

Example:

In a world denominating everything in Bitcoin. I am 24 years old and like to start with a great business idea, buy land and renovate a house. Where will I get the money from if I don't have it right now? But I am highly confident that with my youth and vigor I will produce value for society with my business. I can't? I have to work 10 years as an employee before, to be able to generate the capital myself before starting a business?

Alright, say somebody is willing to lend me 1 BTC for my business (peer-to-peer, self custodial, on an open decentralized protocol). The lender doesn't even take interest, but just wants the 1 BTC back over 10 years. With the appreciating value of Bitcoin vis-à-vis all goods and service - say still 10% per year - repaying is tricky enough. So, one may argue providing credit will become very unattractive. Still, the need for urgent economic activity will remain for people. How does a purely Bitcoinized world address these needs? Or in a world of abundance these needs won't be prevalent anymore?

I'm really open and think it's fun to go through these scenarios. All will happen for the best 🙏

nostr:nevent1qqsg6ayelvaluqnx795nzjazy2xp9vm3jnka0au0tdyvkwpknz68y5qpzpmhxue69uhkummnw3ezumt0d5hsyg9k95fk44uds7v4xvrr3xhyst69xv02f7d7wpl878k0shpq0lggvypsgqqqqqqs4np2mn

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Discussion

wymike 1y ago

In Islam interest is not allowed. I’m not an expert but as I understand it if you take a loan from the bank you essentially agree to split the profits of your endeavour that you borrow the money for.

To frame this in a bitcoin world. If I lend someone 1BTC to start a business we might agree to split the profits on a percentage basis until 1.1BTC has been returned to me.

Both parties can agree on a mutually acceptable profit split and total return

Seodan 1y ago

Yes, that's interesting and there must be some good material to read up on this 🙏 European medieval Christianity also discouraged loan business, which is why banking activities before the Renaissance were mostly outsourced to the Jewish communities.

In terms of business, yes, also Saifedean mentioned the option of giving equity to the lender, that's possible.

What if there's no profit related to the object I need the money for, e.g. real estate for private use? We have to get used to the fact that we can only buy things once we've fully earned them? Or in an abundant world based on a Bitcoin standard, prices will fall to such an extent that 5 years of productive labor would afford a house?

wymike 1y ago

Re housing: there are other options to either saving up or getting a loan. In the UK they have building societies that started as just what the name suggests. Everyone payed in some money each month and when there was enough money it would be used to build a house for one of the participants. This continued until everyone had a house. I’m not suggesting this is the solution just using it to highlight that there are other ways.

To your point about prices, I think this is a reasonable assumption that I’ve heard from @michalesaylor and @jeffbooth, they will fall to the cost of their utility value because they will be less desirable as a store of value.

I’m sure a lot of millennials and gen Z would take having to save for 10 years to buy a house over their current situation.

Seodan 1y ago

Great! I heard about such a building communities for housing from after WWII times in Eastern Germany as well. Definitely revivable. Just need a looower time preference.

I also agree with you that if within ~10 years of good work you're able to afford property, then the young generation wouldn't mind working hard first. I personally grew up with that mindset and it didn't occur to me to buy real estate without having earned enough beforehand. Only once I realized that in most Western countries housing prices are through the roof is that I hesitantly started considering credit.

wymike 1y ago

Finally finished listening to the interview today and found myself much more aligned with saylors view of the future than safedean’s.

A lot of the people still to come into Bitcoin will not hold the same views as the early adopters and will likely be happy to have someone else custody their Bitcoin for them, especially if the custodian pays them a yield on it.

Also, the scenario where everyone is just using Bitcoin and there is no more fiat traditional finance is more then likely so far off that we can’t predict what will change in the interim.

One think I know for sure is that if there is a demand for something in the market someone will fill that demand. If in the future there is a demand for credit when the world is in a Bitcoin standard someone will find a way to meet that demand.

Low Information Voter 1y ago

Start small and grow by reinvesting profits from cashflow works for most business ideas.

It's unpopular because its "get rich slow" compared to borrowing big from a bank and gambling on paying it back faster than the interest mounts.

But it'll work as well in 2050 as it did in 1850.

Seodan 1y ago

Yeah, good thinking! Sounds healthy to me 🌿

And if I think about it, all the big old companies, say the Fuggers or early industrial revolution oil businesses started off with a simple craft, say making shoes, soap or matches, before they embarked on bigger projects with their early capital. This was a generational thing, so time preference is muuuuch lower. It's gotta be clear that only your grandchildren might be able to do 'bigger' things with the fruits of your labor. And perhaps fewer people will even want 'bigger' in an abundant world.

We'll recalibrate our brains. Bitcoin and consciousness (r)evolution go hand in hand 🙏