Replying to Avatar vinney...axkl

I'm not endorsing all the other stuff you're saying, but re: this bit:

> I guess I'm saying there's some deeper problem that creates these other things we see in society and ultimately destroys the society

The answer is simple: The main problem is using the State as the vehicle to "protect the collective". The state is the _organization_ of the political means to wealth. The political means to wealth works exclusively by theft and seizure (as opposed to he economic means to wealth, which is operates via voluntary exchange), the obvious result is ever more theft, seizure and restriction on individual freedom.

This isn't an accident or a failure mode that can be avoided, it is _the design_ of the political means to power and the design of the State. It is inherent in the implementation.

The impulse to "protect the collective" may be benevolent, but the method by which you attempt to achieve it is the poison.

Mussolini:

- "The citizen in the Fascist State is no longer a selfish individual who has the anti-social right of rebelling against the law of collectivity".

- "The Fascist State [...interprets _for_ men] the duties they have to fulfill"

Hitler:

- "The state should retain supervision, [and property 'owners' should consider themselves] appointed by the state"

- "It is [the property owner's] duty not to use his property against the interests of others among his own people"

- "The State will always retain its right to _control the owners of property"

To put it very simply, the problem with these approaches - and most any version of socialism is that they remove the fundamental respect for private property, superseding it with a coercive "duty to the collective".

i'm a radical libertarian anarchist

the state is violence, and its health is war, which is the apotheosis of violence

none of this stuff happens without a lot of lies, deception and theft to pay for the immoral mercenaries that are required to implement it

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Indeed.

That was well put, and I understand the disclaimer - I'll even add my own disclaimer retroactively -- I don't hate gay people... I just see it as suboptimal, and promoting it is unjustifiable. That's why the flag basically compelled me to speak up. I don't seek to cure gays - I seek to address the underlying cause than manifests the effect. Address the cause, and the effect will sort itself out. And in that context, I would prefer compassion towards them, even if their choices are wrong.

What are your thoughts on Feudalism? I am basically coming around to the opinion that Feudalism is actually the only "just" arrangement of a state. I don't mean serfs - contractual work is a detail that can be adjusted as needed. But Feudalism is the simple concept that fealty is a limited obligation, and the king and the vassal both have duties to each other, and one of its conditions is that the vassal's property must never be stolen.

I don't have a problem with governance or hierarchies if all the parties are voluntarily consenting and they're not coercing me to go along with their thing.

Any system that preserves Exit gets a thumbs-up from me.

Yeah. The ability to exit really is the bottom line

Exactly

Are you familiar the Mouse Utopia experiment?

Many parallels.

I am not. Enlighten me?

this is part of the origin of the Rats of Nimh books

National institute of Mental Health

absolutely horrifying what they did to these poor critters

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rats_of_NIMH

notice how the NIMH is capitalized?

the school teacher who read one of these books in my year five primary school class also coincidentally gave away a bunch of books one time and one was a book about the paranormal that set me off on a whole thing that really has shaped so much of my subsequent life

she also read us Charlottes Web, which probably is actually also a covert narrative relating to some horrible government experiment

reading that wikipedia page indeed it must surely be related

the premise of the story was it was a government experiment to make rats sapient and what happened when there was too many of them

the reality was simply an experiment where they did all kinds of weird things to the living quarters and yes indeed they also put too many of them together and observed their behaviour

so, yeah, the books were clearly tied to the experiments

what kind of ridiculous conversation did i just read.

While I find the argument state === violence by design and market is voluntary by design ...is legitimate and how markets can or cannot work with or without state - e.g. what is the consensus mechanism to manage e.g. a "land registry" (who owns what land) ... would be interesting, because there is a lot to explore.

But mixing that conversation with personal lifestyle, preferences, or whatever ...such as whether somebody being "gay" is somehow related to that is very weird and imho completely pseudo-scientific and irrelevant.

In a free world, it's everyones choice to live whatever lifestyle they want to live. Everyone in this context is master of their own destiny. Do what you will, so long as it harms none. Live and let live. To each their own.

You stumbled onto three dudes (so far) who can see that there's something wrong in the world and think some of it is connected. You're welcome to join in.

why do you think it is connected?

Only speaking for myself, but I think values are being corrupted. I mean that in the sense of data transmission and storage, not the usual nebulous "values" that can mean anything.

You could think of it as memes... That's actually probably more accurate. The fidelity of a meme sometimes degrades in the transmission to new hosts. Its a lack of nuance, a lack of a complete understanding of the mental object being passed between people.

Okay... Thesis incoming.

I see this as being caused by two diseases or wounds.

The first is, of course, the lossy nature of fiat money - value stored disappears, due to inflation. Well, that's a constant stress on people's well being, even if mostly unnoticed by the conscious mind. I think the effect is much much more than what people have observed and researched - the shift in incentive for behavior to favor more short term thinking. Its more than that. Its a degradation of psychological fidelity, in the sense that language defines experience insofar as language involves discreet units of meaning, which are memes. If that made sense, then you're awesome, because I feel like I'm explaining it poorly.

The second wound is the default to collective action on everything. We've all been taught that democracy is civilized and its better to resolve conflict via a majority consensus. But that robs people of agency. Instead of taking action ourselves, we default to the assumption that someone else will take care of it, whatever 'it' is. We're operating at the lowest possible energetic state, as a society. The result is, we alternate between corruption of government offices and a tyranny of the majority. Nuance is gone from politics, and politics is expanded to every conceivable issue.

There may be more wounds that I haven't figured out yet, but those two are synergizing with each other to cause wildly disproportionate effects. Socialism - national (Nazis) or international (Communists) - is one effect. Another is memetically transmissible diseases, such as pedophilia, which gets a lot of cover / camouflage from homosexuality. Veganism is one. The "trad" movement, and associated misunderstandings of Christianity, are another.

The point is not to condemn anyone for living how they choose. Live your best life. But I don't want to see the world trashed by another world war, and I also don't want it being ruled by... Anyone... But definitely not the globalist technocrats who are trafficking and murdering children. That does appear to be the two options for planet Earth right now - dominated by psychos or a total war.

Does that make sense?

yes, collectivism and monetary debasement (robbing the poor to pay the rich) is steadily destroying the fabric of society

and that's before you start examining all the ways in which they are literally making people unviable for reproduction

Its on purpose

you only misunderstand the relevance to these perversions because you don't think about the fact that gay means not reproducing or having a future and focusing on the pleasure of sex without the consequences of reproduction