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Posted this on Twitter, less applicable here, but maybe useful as a way of finding common ground with people who for whatever reason are stuck in outmoded worldviews.

I suspect more people than we realize are silently going along to get along but are not remotely on board (or in denial) of what’s really going on. Anyway, this was the post:

*Imagine a lot of smart liberals are realizing it's time to fold a bad hand now.*

*You are not pro-war, pro-censorship, pro pharmaceutical conglomerates, jailing and assassinating political rivals, biological males destroying girls sports.*

*You were for the regular working person, skeptical of the corporate media, defenders of free speech.*

*This is not what you signed up for. This is not what you're about. I know a lot of you well, and this phony, dishonest cabal of oligarchs isn't aligned with your values at all.*

*You do not owe this metastasized version of your former party blind allegiance. They lied to your face about Biden's dementia, the lab leak, the safety and efficacy of the shot.*

*They are not looking out for you. The incentives you had to go along are insufficient. The lies are too big now, the absurdity too out in the open.*

*Opt out. Leave. Fold. Fight for your real values not these astroturfed perversions.*

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Discussion

pseudo~u *likes nostr already* 1y ago

I think most people who say/said they subscribe to those things only did so because that's what they thought they had to do to follow the herd. They actually couldn't care less about any of it, or anything except their personal gratification and that mainly means following the herd.

If they were going to truly wake up I think they'd have done so by now (and it would require them to care about things other than following the herd in the first place).

But the minority of us who are awake, and care about reality etc, are the only possible source of human progress, courage, strength, ingenuity, compassion, integrity. So while I am pessimistic that the sheep will change I think it's inevitable that one day they will follow us.. 😁

Chris Liss 1y ago

I think there are a lot of half awake people who realize something is deeply wrong, but are pushed by incentives not to awaken fully. My strategy is to push in the other direction, make them realize they are making a bad bet. People don’t respond to moral chastising, but they do respond to being shown what they’re doing is bad for them, counter to their aims of fitting in, not getting hassled.

pseudo~u *likes nostr already* 1y ago

Yes, that's the way to let them see there's something different they can follow.

And I think people are programmed to a certain amount to at least find it cool to disrespect authority as long as they feel safe.

One advantage we have is there are so many ways into it. Eg I am talking to an old friend who already gets the trans stuff, and also Epstein. It's then much easier to show him that if the media are lying to him and trying to control him about those issues they can't be trusted on any others.

Chris Liss 1y ago

Right you always start with common ground and build from there. I think it’s easy to write everyone off as brainwashed or whatever, but I think only 10-20 percent are truly brainwashed, and most people are just responding to incentives which are changeable. Even better is if it dawns on them that the highest incentive is to sense-make for oneself.

Sovereign Being 1y ago

The responses you got to this on twitter gave me a good chuckle. TDS is alive and well and people are afraid to leave the herd.

Chris Liss 1y ago

Ha -- a couple of those. And a lot of the libs — the people I know well — almost certainly have me on mute. But got a couple good responses and a DM too. I think a lot of people badly want to jump off this sinking ship.

Sovereign Being 1y ago

Most seem to be terrified of showing any dissent or disagreement with their side in public. Very much cult-like behaviour, because of the irrational reactions they are likely to receive from their peers.

I spent the weekend interacting with some normies and it kind of floored me how lost so many still are. Completely uninformed, only know what the media tells them, zero intellectual curiosity in most of them, and worst of all they are uninterested in examining anything outside the norm, while having almost understanding of the things they believe.

Sovereign Being 1y ago

*almost no understanding

Chris Liss 1y ago

Have had that same experience *many* times. Smart, otherwise engaged people just with zero interest in sense-making about what’s going on. But that same herd-drift mentality can be used IMO, if you persuade them the worm has turned and they’re on a sinking ship. Can’t argue facts directly, more just pointing out a few obvious things they already know.

Sovereign Being 1y ago

Any breakthrough discussions tend to be from the people I would place on the lower end of the bell curve, rather than the types that are 'too smart for their own good'.

Some examples, and bear in mind this is in the UK:

"I don't know any of her policies, but Kamala seems like the obvious choice."

"So you support Trump?"

"I don't do Bitcoin mate, only stocks" said with a smug look.

🤣

Chris Liss 1y ago

heard all those things, but also got into with a guy who was emotional and upset when I told him I was “considering” voting for Trump.

But as we talked, I challenged a lot of his beliefs about climate change, etc. And my wife told me by the end he looked shaken like he had gotten beaten up in a fight. And I was nice about it, but the cognitive dissonance apparently took a toll.

I have no idea if it had a lasting impact, but I planted a seed. Thing about the guy (was British) was that he was a sensible and anti-authoritarian type of person which is why he was able to have the discussion. And there are a lot of those types who were liberal because they thought that was being for the underdog and don’t realize they’re now for the authoritarians.

Sovereign Being 1y ago

I probably need to refine my approach, admittedly. I try to make it fairly light-hearted but I struggle to get through to the types of people who are stuck in their mainstream bubbles. I'm not really trying to convince people of my thinking, but have conversations outside of the typical shit people converse about. I'm okay with being an outlier and all the ignorant ridicule that comes with it.

Bitpower 1y ago

They will not fold. This is the psychology of totalitarianism. No matter their IQ.

Chris Liss 1y ago

They will if you convince them they are drawing dead. Which they are.

Bitpower 1y ago

I want to agree but am not hopeful since I read Mattias Desmet his fantastic book on this topic.

Chris Liss 1y ago

I would say only 10-20 percent are truly in a state of psychosis. Most are going along due to incentives. (Psychotic people are scary!)

The key is to reach the non-psychotics, and you do that by persuading them that appeasing the psychos is no longer in their interest.

Bitpower 1y ago

Sounds reasonable. But I couldn’t even persuade my best friends (honest, rational people) not to take the jab.

Chris Liss 1y ago

I hear you — that was in the acute mania phase, though. They went all-in for that. Can’t do that more than once IMO.