Nostr Web Client

Lightning is pretty private if used correctly.

The argument, for me at least, is that because of how hard it is to use that way the vast majority are using custodial wallets like Wallet of Satoshi that can see everything they do (and any rogue employees, hackers, and governments that get acces to that centralized database). Similar privacy to a bank. Even non-custodial LSP wallets like Phoenix don't offer any better privacy (they admit this on their own website)

In comparison, for the average user (by definition most users), Moneros privacy is much easier to attain. Privacy from both counterparty and third parties. Not just one.

https://zapalytics.com/

https://gist.github.com/supertestnet/5bceb60d9c691da744a55dad3f60e65e#file-wallets-txt-L12

Super Testnet 11mo ago

> the vast majority are using custodial wallets like Wallet of Satoshi that can see everything they do

This is a terrible argument. You go on all the time about how monero has better privacy than bitcoin. Imagine my reply was "yeah but most people use bitcoin." What would that prove as a reply? Nothing, except that most people don't care about monero's privacy advantages. So when I argue "lightning has better privacy than monero" and you reply with "yeah but most people use custodians" it proves nothing, except that most people don't care about self-custodial lightning's privacy advantages.

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Discussion

BTheCoin 11mo ago

Totally get your point! It’s great to see discussions about privacy options in crypto. Everyone has different needs, and it's cool to explore what works best for each person! 🌟💪

Max 11mo ago

Many Monero users use light clients that leak sensitive information to the wallet operator server.

rafael_xmr 11mo ago

No Monero users use light clients because they aren't even live in any app. Monero users connect to remote nodes or their own self hosted nodes and do all syncing and tx processing on their devices and the remote node never learns sensitive information

Max 11mo ago

So how does the remote node know which transactions to send to the user?

rafael_xmr 11mo ago

The node sends blocks and the wallet finds out the transactions by scanning, using the keys on the device. Every wallet gets the same info and the wallet never tells the node about the txs it finds

Max 11mo ago

So a wallet downloads all blocks of the entire history?

Saberhagen The Nameless 11mo ago

Yes. They have to catch up from the last block that was synced. That's one of the major complaints about Monero is the sync times.

If you use the same keys on a new wallet you have to sync all the way back from wallet creation date.

Last block synced is one of the few pieces of data that nodes can see.

Louferlou 11mo ago

I think it's also what it takes for Silent Payment, your wallet need to scan all the blocks since last sync to recover its balance.

Kind of a pain in the ass in term of UX no ? Never used a monero wallet so can't relate if it's a real problem or not in term of UX.

I mean in that sense, it's a bit like a self custodfial LN wallet having to sync the graph before paying, and I can relate that it can be painful if you need to pay right away the merchant.

Saberhagen The Nameless 11mo ago

I don't know why the reason is, but Monero scanning is very very fast in comparison. So far, any Silent Payment integration I've tried is impractically and painfully slow. I've given up using it for now. Maybe it will improve down the road?

Yea, its a UX trade-off for sure, especially vs other cryptocurrency, but a relatively simple one because all you have to do is open your wallet and wait. Nothing else. And if you use it somewhat regularly it's pretty damn quick to catch up. I think Cake Wallet is going to release periodic background syncing soon which should improve it UX once more wallets adopt this.

Saberhagen The Nameless 11mo ago

None of the major wallets use light clients (Cake, Monerujo, Feather, GUI/CLI)

You have to sync everything. I think I only know of one light client that exists and its a multi-coin wallet.

Hanshan 11mo ago

which one is that?

I've never seen a light client in the wild.

Saberhagen The Nameless 11mo ago

It's either Edge or Exodus. I can't remember which one at the moment.

ede3d957... 11mo ago

Show us the data. I never encountered anyone in real life and the Monero community is actively discouraging the use of a lite wallet if LWS is not hosted by themselves.

Saberhagen The Nameless 11mo ago

Why is it a terrible argument? People are more likely to use the easier tool. If it's too hard they wont do it. The facts are there on your own github. If you further separated non-custodial LSPs like Phoenix that can see your transactions as well it would be even more obvious.

So are you saying if Lightning wasn't easier to use privately more users wouldn't use it that way? Of course they would!

Do you expect the average user to use PGP to find someones public keys and manually encrypt every time they want to send someone a message? What if I showed them something like Signal and said everything was done for them by default? How popular do you expect each one would be? The answer is glaringly obvious if you're honest.

If Monero was just as hard to use privately as Lightning I would expect the same consequence.

Louferlou 11mo ago

Just did my first blinded path payment yesterday through nostr:nprofile1qyt8wumn8ghj7ct5d3shxtnwdaehgu3wd3skueqpzemhxue69uhky6t5vdhkjmn9wgh8xmmrd9skcqpqxnf02f60r9v0e5kty33a404dm79zr7z2eepyrk5gsq3m7pwvsz2s7szjpe .

Pretty soon IMO even ACINQ won't be able to see the recipient.

You just refuse to let enough time to LN, while also ignoring that you'll need to scale with L2's also on Monero if people start using it one day in the future, and will face the same challenges.

Saberhagen The Nameless 11mo ago

Zeus is my favorite LN wallet and I think blinded paths are dope. Too bad they aren't default or popular yet.

I think Monero is going to go down a different path for L2s. Probably some kind of ZK-rollup from what I read.

And if it does implement a Lightning-like network it will be built on an encrypted blockchain + you guys have already done all the hard work for us 😉

Hanshan 11mo ago

which isn't what he said at all.

defaults matter.

UX matters.

monero provides good privacy by default with a good UX.

LN doesnt.