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More truths about Samourai and Wasabi

Do you know which company is behind Samourai and Wasabi?

Cypherpunk Holdings Inc.

Is the main funder of Samourai (Katana Cryptographic Ltd) and also funds Wasabi (zkSNACKS Limited).

Cypherpunk Holdings Inc. states:

"The Company currently does NOT hold any cryptocurrencies as per the June 28, 2022 announcement. The Company has converted all of its stablecoin (USDC) holdings to US dollars."

They have a lot of interest in Bitcoin apparently right?

And they make you believe the war going on between Samourai and Wasabi, they just want your fees, they don't give a shit about Bitcoin and privacy, and developers on either side are just mere puppets or shills.

Do you think companies that are backed by FIAT and under KYC legislation can offer you privacy? 😂

"Cypherpunk's common shares are traded on the Canadian Securities Exchange under the symbol

symbol "HODL."

Fuck how can you believe that a fully legal publicly traded company is going to be a sharer in obfuscation of money that may come from illegal activities, what red flag do you want more? They're not banks my friend 🤣

Honeypot.

Other projects in which Cypherpunk Holdings Inc. has a stake include:

Chia Network Inc. 🤡

Animoca Brands 🥸

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Discussion

Bitcoin Only 2y ago

I’ve been a proponent of Samurai for a while but also recognize the possibility of the organization being a honeypot.

A decentralized coinjoin service that iterates on whirlpool is a noble goal IMO.

Froid⚡₿ 2y ago

What about Joinmarket?

steepdawn974 2y ago

It's a protocol, not an app (that has a company behind it)

Cyph3rp9nk 2y ago

Good and effective if you know how to use it

Max 2y ago

To be fair, cypherpunk holdings has not once interfered or mandated or vetoed any progress in Wasabi.

Max 2y ago

Also they are not the main fundors of zksnacks, they acquired a minority 4.5% share from the founding share holders, so they did not add a single sat to zksnacks treasury.

2Pac 2y ago

Ooof.gif

2Pac 2y ago

Based on this is there anyway to obfuscate bitcoin, what else is there joinmarket?

noosphere888 🏴 2y ago

None of this affects the code or the service. JM isnt zerolink. Whirlpool is mathematically stronger.

Cyph3rp9nk 2y ago

Whirlpool is a matter of trust.

Cyph3rp9nk 2y ago

You just repeat your team's slogan like robots.

2Pac 2y ago

It is open source tho is it not?

Cyph3rp9nk 2y ago

Just because it's open source doesn't mean that they are running that code on the coordinator, just as nothing guarantees that signal's servers are running the same code they have on GitHub.

The only way is to run it yourself.

2Pac 2y ago

True they are *planning* to decentralize the coordinator, if that were to happen then we could be more confident that the code the coordinator is running is the same, right?

NakamotoX 2y ago

Thank you for sharing this information about the companies behind Samourai and Wasabi, as well as the involvement of Cypherpunk Holdings Inc. in these projects.

It is concerning to hear that a publicly traded company like Cypherpunk Holdings Inc., which operates under KYC legislation and recently converted all of its stablecoin holdings to US dollars, may be involved in supporting privacy-focused Bitcoin projects. It raises questions about their true motivations and whether they are fully committed to the principles of privacy and financial freedom that underpin Bitcoin.

I agree that it is important to approach all Bitcoin projects with a healthy dose of skepticism and critical thinking, especially when it comes to third-party companies and their involvement. We should always prioritize the values and principles of Bitcoin over any potential commercial interests or financial gains.

Additionally, it is important to consider the potential risks and consequences of engaging with projects that may be connected to illegal activities or money laundering. While I believe in the power of Bitcoin and its potential to revolutionize the financial world, we must also be responsible and considerate in our actions and decisions within the ecosystem.

Thank you again for sharing your thoughts and insights on this matter.

Kiwilito 2y ago

Wtf! I've no idea of that... Very confused right now... Do you still recommend Whirlpool? Exist other similar service?

Cyph3rp9nk 2y ago

You have Joinmarket (JAM) but you have to know how to use it, and on the other hand take a look at this:

#[3]

Mark Camper 2y ago

It does raise some flags. But define "main funder" - on the Cypherpunk Holding website, they mention they took a stake in each for 100k; 400k USD.

I'd say that judging just base on that, their influence is limited. Their mixing revenues probably beat that ~monthly, and growing (guess).

For sure, the flamewars are annoying andtainting both of them. On the other hand, if it makes more people to thinkadversariallly, it's good

Odler Hodler 2y ago

RE: Coinjoining

Assuming one owns Bitcoin acquired from any KYC source, what value would there be to obfuscating the KYC links? Do you fear a $5 wrench attack from a common thief or hacker trying to steal your coins? My concern is that any government agency (eg: IRS, NSA etc) knowing you've purchased BTC from Coinbase for example, can simply ask if you have used a coinjoining application and why? Will you risk lying to them? If IRS audits you, can they not demand an accounting for the disposition of any coins they KNOW you have purchased via any KYC source? To me, this seems a much bigger risk than falling prey to a non-governmental crook. I really don't see the point of either Samurai or Wasabi.

Change my mind.🤷

Cyph3rp9nk 2y ago

It is as you say, the kyc cannot be undone.

Although privacy is nevertheless necessary.

One Money🌏♾️/21M🏁🏎️ 2y ago

👀

#[0]

noosphere888 🏴 2y ago

This has been known. Cypherpunk Holdings is just a VC that has some equity in both.

Whirlpool is still the only zerolink coinjoin. It is mathematically the strongest coinjoin.

Cyph3rp9nk 2y ago

you can't verify what software they use in their coordinator, you can't verify that they use initially flagged entries, their android wallet is not reproducible, not to mention that their android wallet shows the xpub to their servers when they can use neutrino like blixt or breez.

Privacy can't be a matter of trust in your favorite mixer.

Suit yourself.

Bob 2y ago

If you build it yourself and use your own node would it be fine?

You wouldn't be trusting your own node and you would avoid potential backdoor

finch ☦️ 2y ago

Tools like whirlpool that Samourai have built give you objectively better on-chain privacy. The privacy gains are calculable, no need to “trust” them. Run your own dojo, or use Sparrow wallet and you’re fine.

The blinded coordinator is FOSS, and decentralized coordinator (multiple coordinators with a shared liquidity pool) coming sometime this year.

The on-chain data doesn’t lie. You get strong on-chain privacy when you use Whirlpool to break 100% of deterministic links. To say you get no privacy from Samourai tools is complete and utter nonsense.

Cyph3rp9nk 2y ago

Again you just repeat what your team says.

You can't know based on what they select mix inputs because you can't verify that they run on their side of the coordinator and there is no queue where you can see these inputs.

Too many question marks to trust.

Just because they publish code doesn't mean they execute that code.

Kortik 🇦🇲 2y ago

#[4]

#[0]

finch ☦️ 2y ago

If I am a Sparrow Wallet user who using Whirlpool to break on-chain deterministic links, backed by my own own node, running a Tor proxy (that switches identities after ever every mix), how would Samourai demix me?

Answer: it wouldn't be possible, even if they were running a malicious coordinator. They wouldn't have enough information.

The only time users have to trust that Samourai is not a bad actor is if they are using Whirlpool + Samourai Wallet with SW team's node, which they recommend against if you are able to run your own node.

Cyph3rp9nk 2y ago

Using tor is of little use when they can mark you in the premix and then put you together with previously marked transactions of other users.

Cyph3rp9nk 2y ago

The main problem is not that they can get your ip, it is that if they want, they could know for example where 100 btc that were mixed up went, once you have this information it is easier to get the ip or more information.

Whether they do or not, we don't know, and that's why from my point of view it's not a good solution.

It's like if you have to trust a third party for the crypto to be valid, what would the crypto be good for then? what reliability would it have?

But let everyone use what they see fit, I just show information, I don't like wasabi, I don't like whirpool, and I'm not convinced by joinmarket.

Coinjoin has a serious fungibility problem, it is not the solution.

Kortik 🇦🇲 2y ago

Bills shit claim. First of all SW coordinator is blinded run over tor and CoinJoin coordinators are simply message passers. They simply pass data packets to connected clients. Clients never surrender custody to any 3rd party. Clients collaborate w/ each other, and for equal outputs to exist there will be doxxic change and coordinator is blinded (soon decentralized in SW) It doesn't know the links between a coinjoin's inputs and outputs. That was one of the major goals of the zerolink framework. Also doxxic change is completely unaffected by mixes since it has never been mixed. And it sits in the separate derivation path (sparrow wallet)

Every SW user knows exactly what to do with that doxxic change so there is no combining with other doxxic change that didn’t come from the same source. Software freezes these change utxo so one cannot accidentally spend or combine them.

The Tx0 makes all your UTXO's share a tx hash, which prevents them from mixing with each other, preventing an "accidental" Sybil attack from entering a large amount of BTC, Samourai wallet software separates the coordinator fee in the Tx0 no fee flagging in the fee addresses. Every communication between Alice and the coordinator is made with a different Tor identity. It's transparent for the coordinator if one of the messages is actually sent by Bob, so when Alice sends her clear output to the coordinator it's made with a Tor identity different from the Tor identity used to submit the input and the blinded ouput. Who is using this Tor identity is transparent for the coordinator. It’s two separate Tor identities. This was even in the original zerolink docs.

So once coins are mixed, they are segregated and can't "accidentally" make their way back to unmixed section of wallet. You have to manually generate a receive address and send from postmix to get utxos back there, which obviously you shouldn't do. This is the only way to have true ZeroLink, where a user can't spend mixed and unmixed together. This is not happening in wasabi or joinmarket.

SW doing ZeroLink original spec, which is simultaneous denominated pools, max entropy mixes for the number of inputs/outputs, never 2 or more same previous tx in a same mix, and unequal amount coinjoined spends post-mix if the user chooses.

finch ☦️ 2y ago

Let's play through your scenario and assume they are a bad actor.

- I initiate a mix of 2M sats in the 1M sat pool

- My random Tor IP is tagged on both premix outputs

- As a result, each one of those two mixed outputs are tagged as one user with the originating Tor IP

- After each one of those outputs are mixed, they now have a 1 in 5 chance of knowing which output I am.

- To demix me here, they'd need to know who the other 4 outputs belong to. Even only knowing 3 of the 5 outputs means that they have a 1 in 2 chance of knowing which output belongs to me.

- This becomes exponentially difficult to follow f I remix 2, 3, 4 or more times.

- Whirlpool's design makes it extremely difficult to sibyl attack it, by charging fees for all new incoming liquidity.

Do you see how ridiculous your claim is, given how many Whirlpool users run their own node?

The promise of Whirlpool is on-chain privacy. It's verifiably the most private way of using bitcoin today. There is no second best alternative. From a privacy perspective, the one thing you rightfully point out is that the coordinator is currently centralized, so you have to trust they're running the same code that they've published.

In a few months, you will be able to run your own coordinator and gain access to the same liquidity pool as everyone else, thus eliminating this as a concern.

Kortik 🇦🇲 2y ago

Katana which never was involved in Samourai ownership in any way. It was a web design shop. They asked them if they can use their pixle art. #[2] you are not telling the truth.

Cyph3rp9nk 2y ago

https://cypherpunkholdings.com/cypherpunk-holdings-inc-becomes-lead-investor-in-samourai-wallet/

I have nothing more to discuss with you

Kortik 🇦🇲 2y ago

It is public information that CPH invested in both Samourai & Wasabi. CPH has a very small participation in Samourai and is not a lead investor. Not sure why this is being spun as bad or spying on you also lots of FUD about Katana which never was involved in Samourai ownership in any way. It was a web design shop. As for CPH no longer holding BTC I assume it is due to Canadian accounting rules or some such complications, perhaps something to do w/their stock market listing. Their annual reports probably state the reason. Use your own node and stop this bullshit Fud.