THIS is EXACTLY what it’s like talking to a pro-genocide pro-lsraeIi supporter. And this is also EXACTLY how you need to talk to them, if you can stomach such a conversation
Discussion
James is a smart man and Grahm left his reason behind and got roiled up. Perfect show of how a calm bad position can beat a frazzled good one.
Could you please explain, if you have time, the good position and bad one, because from what I understood from the conversation, one we answering one question with something that was not asked. It’s like me asking:
“Do you agree with the murder of innocent children?”
Answer:
“If Hamas surrender they wouldn’t die”
That’s not answering my question. Of course they wouldn’t die if they weren’t there, but as they are there, and innocent civilians are dying in large numbers, do you agree in the way they are being killed?
Your feedback would be great
i will reply later but briefly your example is a good one of avoiding the question . but the question that was asked in the interview was not simple like that question .
i think the main question is ***how many civilian casualties are acceptable ?***
ideally zero
ideally there is no war and the invaders turn around and go home
but there is a war and there are civilians in the crossfire
so how many is it okay to kill ?
by what metric do we measure the effort in avoiding noncomb casualties say "you didn't try enough" or "you tried enough" ?
Fair point. However, I will push back a bit here. We are not referring to clashes between fighters with random bullets flying here and there and people getting caught in the crossfire, or like a police shootout where innocent civilians get hit by stray bullets. We are talking about sending down bombs from the sky to hit targets where you know 100% that innocent civilians WILL DIE, not accidentally, but they ARE THERE, just to ‘potentially’ get a ‘bad guy’. The target may not be there but innocent civilians ARE definitely there.
So I’m not naive to think that civilians will never get flung into these situations, but we are talking about deliberately targeting civilians and civilian infrastructure to ‘potentially’ get a target. And I have not even brought up the reality that nobody is talking about, which is ‘how does one even know where these ‘enemy targets’ are?’ They aren’t even on the surface? And that’s not even talking about the many non-violent solutions one could take before the above.
Now in good faith, have I been reasonable above?
You are somewhat reasonable but you don't write like someone who understands war or maybe even violence. i am going to guess that you don't know how to fight with your hands. Is that right?
You might appreciate S2 underground on telegram NOV04 and OCT31. He asks "How did israel intelligence fail to detect buildup of hamas invasion force, but then suddenly has exact gps coordinates for missle strikes?
He is active US army intelligence so yes "people" are talking about it, the world is a big place
Errm, im a bit thrown of by your response here…not sure how it’s related or what you’re pointing me to?
I have learnt (but it mastered) two different forms of combative martial arts (judo and win chun) but not sure how it’s relevant to the war in Gaza. Feel free to clarify if you feel it adds value to the conversation
I may or may not be muslim. That is irrelevant. This is simple logic.
"we have sworn…to destroy Hamas. Nothing will stop us"
That is a very broad brush stroke. It is not nuanced.
Did he mean "we will drop a nuclear bomb on them!"
No. For many good reasons.
Therefore, there are parameters to the destruction of Hamas.
He did not say "we will stop at nothing" (i.e. we will do anything)
He said that nothing will stop them. They will continue within parameters (perhaps, preserving as much israeli life as possible, remaining mindful of civilians) until ultimately Hamas is destroyed.
James is trying to use this statement to cry "genocide!". That's logically broken.
So, based on the above, are you in agreement with the murder of innocent civilians in order to kill those who resist their occupation? A question asked in good faith.
no i have never been and will never be in agreement with the murder of anyone. particularly noncombatants.
i respectfully ask these two questions :
are you in agreement with the murder of innocent civilians in order to resist occupation?
and based on the above do you think that james' argument is logically flawed ? if not can you tell me where i am wrong in my thinking ?
Thank you for your feedback, and here’s the answer to your two questions as best I can.
1) I was born into a Christian family but later in life accepted Islam, and in doing so, decided to take my morality of right and wrong from Islam. As it relates to the killing of non-combatants, then Islam is very strict about the rules of war. The following are protected individuals in Islam, even if they are from “the enemy”
a) Women
b) Children, both male and female
c) The elderly, both male and female
d) Monks, those who have dedicated themselves to their religion/worship and are therefore not engaged in any fighting
e) Any male who is literally not engaged in the fighting, like a farmer etc
f) It goes as far as to include combatants that disarm and ask for sanctuary, ESPECIALLY if they accept Islam (but it’s not a requirement)
g) There are a few other categories but I cannot remember right now the rest, but the above are the most.
These are very strict rules, as you can imagine being religiously stipulated and it’s not something small to take lightly. Allaah says in the Quraan
مِنۡ أَجۡلِ ذَ ٰلِكَ كَتَبۡنَا عَلَىٰ بَنِیۤ إِسۡرَ ٰۤءِیلَ أَنَّهُۥ مَن قَتَلَ نَفۡسَۢا بِغَیۡرِ نَفۡسٍ أَوۡ فَسَادࣲ فِی ٱلۡأَرۡضِ فَكَأَنَّمَا قَتَلَ ٱلنَّاسَ جَمِیعࣰا وَمَنۡ أَحۡیَاهَا فَكَأَنَّمَاۤ أَحۡیَا ٱلنَّاسَ جَمِیعࣰاۚ وَلَقَدۡ جَاۤءَتۡهُمۡ رُسُلُنَا بِٱلۡبَیِّنَـٰتِ ثُمَّ إِنَّ كَثِیرࣰا مِّنۡهُم بَعۡدَ ذَ ٰلِكَ فِی ٱلۡأَرۡضِ لَمُسۡرِفُونَ﴿ ٣٢ ﴾
“On account of [his deed], We decreed to the Children of Israel that if anyone kills a person- unless in retribution for murder or spreading corruption in the land- it is as if he kills all mankind, while if any saves a life it is as if he saves the lives of all mankind. Our messengers came to them with clear signs, but many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.
Al-Māʾidah, Ayah 32
This is something Allaah informed us in the Quraan that He told the children of Israel not to do (and therefore Muslims also) but also told us, the Muslims, they they still disobeyed and killed wrongfully anyway, in the past.
So to conclude my answer, and apologies for the detail (but detail here is important) yes I agree, innocence is forbidden 🚫.
But Islam does have capital punishment, as you can see in the verse above. So if someone murdered someone deliberately, then the family of the one murdered can choose the death penalty, or take ‘blood money’ instead.
2) Jason’s question, taken in isolation, could be taken to be worded wrongly, as the phrase “stop at nothing” could be refined in a context. A bit like saying to one’s wife “I will do anything for you” which clearly didn’t literally mean he will do anything. BUT, the reason why the guy refused to answer and why Jason said what he said, is because the actions and clear numerous statements of Netanyahu et al has clarified in detail genocidal intent. So although one could argue that it was worded wrong, the context clarifies its correct intent.
I hope the above helps. Look forward to your feedback
I'm glad you condemn the october 7 killings then. And i'm glad you condemn hama's stated goals of killing all israelis. And i'm glad you condemn netinyahu's and the idf's desire to wipe out palestinians. We are on the same page. If the usa and israel had taken a calmer approach, instead of roiling up war and calling for war, the outcome would be many fewer lives lost.
Just to clarify:
i responded to your post because you said this is how to deal with israel supporter. I said no, he has faulty logic, do not make yourself look like fool. Grahm wasn't a fair target, he was an emotional fool.
James specifically said not to talk about the context. Re watch the clip.. he laser-focused on "these four words" like an ass
Both men are jackasses taking advantage of a tragedy.
As a former chrisian you maybe know of Just War Theory. The protected classes are identical to islam. USA began ignoring in WWii when bombing civilian infrastructure in Berlin.
Then the atomic bombs.
It is built in to ALL military doctrines that civilian infrastructure can be legitimate target.
You will never agree that israel is allowed to kill palestinians because you view the israelis as the true invaders.
But i hope you can float up and loom down on yourself and others
See how the other guy believes just as strongly and with just as legitimate a starting point as you that he is right and you are the one supporting murderers.
You both are trying to protect the innocent but the innocent are different people. And so you try to kill one another to protect your people.
When you each truly love your people, you can justify mind blowing (pun not intended) levels of violence against the people of the other side.
you should sub to the hamas telegram and really read their website. pretend in your mind you are an outsider and listen to what they say.
Sorry for the detail and nuance but as you say it is important.
Hamas when they killed noncombatants and when they endorse terrorism, show that they will "stop at nothing" to get what they want.
israel when they bomb one of the most densly populated areas on earth and creates the most oppressive surveillance state other than china shows that they will "stop at nothing" to get whag they want.
Pallestinians should fight for themselves and israelis should fight for themselves.
But war is very very economically beneficial in the short term. General lee knew this, and before him, william shakespeare before him roman emporer titus, and before him chinese emporer qin shi huang.
Powerful people love war.
They want the rest of us to take a side.
you and i don't know enough to say if this airstrike or that airstrike deliberately targeted civilians, or if it was a legitimate surgical blow.
And we live in an era of 5th gen warfare where everything we are told is twisted for propoganda. The lack of actual information coming out of gaza and israel makes this worse. Much of the intel from both sides is heavily manipulated and the interpretation even more so.
This war is hurting many young people and refreshing the ranks of angry genocidal murderes like ben on both sides. it's a thousand year old conflict that this recent development isn't going yo fix. It'll just keep going as boys filled with hate and pain try to relieve that strain in their head by killing the boys from the othet side
If you truly care about the actual children, go and actually help the actual children. I do not care about them, i care about the people around me. I dont have time in the day to care about palestinian kids, or north korean kids, or kids in thr congo or guatemala or new york city slums or the 14 yo prostitutes in LA. I am thankful everyday for temporary peace my people experience and i work to serve the people i know who are in need and in pain.
An israeli life is worth a palestinian life is worth any other life. Hate of a human is wrong. It is never justified.
so in summary i say both sides should kill as many of the other side as possible, and try to avoid non-coms / protect their own, and finish this thing. but the rest of us should expect way higher than normal civilian cansualties because of the geography, demographics, tools being used, strategies, etc. Noncom casualties are tragic and targeting civilians is wrong. But there's no number where we say "stop, change tactics" it's not 10% or 1% or 100,000. We kill until the other side surrenders so that they are not annihilated.
Thank you for your detailed reply. It seems like you think deeply about these things, and that’s a great thing. I often enjoy having conversations with intelligent deep thinkers.
I’ll just give short points of benefit on some of the things you mentioned.
1) Israel deliberately target civilising by their own admission. This is wrong for me, regardless if it’s to my Palestinians brothers and sisters, or to some indigenous tribe in the jungle.
Feel free to check this out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvJxI9nCr1k
2) Hummus does not deliberately target civilians nor does it want to “wipe out all Israelis”. You can take my word for it or just look at the confirmed actions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uxDgFkH-UI
3) I don’t ‘condemn Hamas’, as to ‘condemn’, means to pass a verdict of guilt for wrongdoing to a person/people. One needs to bring me what has been confirmed that they did deliberately that I can condemn. To this date, and I’ve followed this closely, I have no seen any evidence of deliberate crimes against civilians as part of a preplanned strategy. Did civliians die? Yes. Were they specifically targeted as part of the military strategy? The evidence shows that not to be the case. Did they beheaded babies, rape women, cut off heads, cut off breasts, cut out babies from women’s stomachs? Absolutely not. There are even plenty of examples of videos, that I’ve seen myself from Israeli sources, where they specifically made effort NOT to kill civilians? Even to ask if someone was a civilian or not, saying to people “protect them, don’t harm them”. This is from Israeli testimonies.
So if they took it as a strategy to target innocent civilians then I would confer that if proven, but I haven’t seen that.
In opposition to that, Israel, as i showed above, does deliberately target civilians.
That’s enough for now
Just to be clear, the likes of ISIS and those groups of deliberately target innocent civilians like placing bombs in shopping centres and public transport busses for example are grossly mistaken and evil. I just don’t accept that Hummus is like that.