Replying to Avatar Guy Swann

While this is a very fair point, it is also worth noting that this action has explicitly transformed it from one of the most dangerous and violent countries in the world, to one of the safest.

It’s extremely difficult to have a course of action to solve a problem that is so intractable as to have corruption invade every level of the system that is supposed to “adjudicate” the process and have it actually be fair or just. When the system itself is so poisoned that even its design can’t protect it, what do you do?

Again not excusing it, just sharing my thoughts on why “a fair process” doesn’t make a just outcome when it’s completely corrupted from top to bottom.

I’ll point to Jeffrey Epstein as the example for those in the US. How well did it work out to have a system as corrupt as he is, adjudicate and punish his actions? Oh that’s right, they defended him, protected him, funded him, and let him walk around free for decades and then when there was even a hint of the degree of his evil and malice getting out to the public, he was murdered in a cell, behind guards, and under surveillance in a system who’s SOLE purpose was to keep him alive so he could stand trial and we could see some semblance of justice.

So it’s not so black and white as “did they get a fair trial.” Even as someone who holds that as a paramount right of every human. I wish it was, but the world is a messy place. nostr:note1x8z4lwzjknfq7p30p20t3e5yttj0lzjzkywv2hv9388k9cgwma8qn8xq0v

I don't agree with the Epstein analogy; it's a different thing entirely. The fundamental point here is that ethics are expensive.

Living in very low development societies, you have very different choices than you do living in high development societies. I have friends in ES that are still in their twenties, that vividly remember times when: as a man, you could be shot for taking the wrong bus and ending up in the wrong suburb; as a parent, you might have to lock your daughter in the house permanently because you know she will be taken by the gangs for their "use" and you will never see her again. These are just a small section of the horrors of living in some parts of ES when the gangs had no pushback.

You could think of Bukele (and this applies to any government that actually functions) as another gang. But he has very broad support because his gang is promoting some kind of traditional/Christian morality in a largely Christian country. But given that context, the undoubted evil of some people (we of course will never know how many) being imprisoned unjustly, along with the more insidious evil of excessive power in the hands of one main, when balanced against the counterfactual of uncountable murders, thefts and rapes that *would* have happened without this, is easier to square off.

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Agree with a lot of this. The Espstein analogy wasn’t supposed to be about the degree of problem, but about its *kind.* in other words, it was just meant to show that a “fair” system that inevitably requires human subjectivity, that is overrun with corruption, liars, cheating-as-a-rule, and outright malice, does not mean that its design ensures a fair or just outcome.

The point you make about how bad the conditions were in the country help bring that point home. You can’t fix awful values and a society run by fear with a cleverly designed bureaucratic process. Ultimately it is still all executed and enforced by humans.

Again this isn’t a claim of what action should be taken. Only that there are no clear options even though some may seem “sound” in principle, when we forget that the system isn’t mathematical like #Bitcoin, but inescapably human in its operation.