If everyone is against you, it doesn’t mean you’re wrong.

It doesn’t mean you’re right either.

If you’re right, there’s a good chance a lot of people are gonna be against you though, and if you’re wrong, you can still become one of the most widely accepted charlatans on the planet.

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How to you define gurus?

Oxford defines a guru as a spiritual teacher, especially one who imparts "initiation".

I might rearticulate that as follows:

A guru is a person who has, due to the sum of their past choices, achieved full enlightenment or, at the very least, gnosis, and serves the community as an "effective" spiritual teacher.

The word "effective" is used here to encapsulate the ability to "impart 'initiation'" from Oxford's definition. If a spiritual teacher truly "gets it", that is, understands what is necessary to fulfill the spiritual prerequisite accomplishments for achieving full enlightenment, they should be able to guide genuine students to become enlightened. If the guru, in his/her whole tenure as a guru, leads a single student to enlightenment, it counts. The successes of the student validate the teacher. We're to judge tree by the fruits they bear. Anything short of that is definitional prejudice.

The heart chakra is assumed to be active in any "guru" as people who are of a "service to self orientation" do not activate the heart chakra and do not tend to engage in "service to others" types of activities, especially teaching. Teaching others empowers them and a service to self oriented person would regard the act of informing others as an intentional forfeiture of a competitive advantage.

Gnosis, aka Da'ath, aka Vishuddha, the wisdom chakra in the throat, corresponds with truth telling. A guru does know what s/he knows and has no problem saying "I don't know" when s/he doesn't know. A guru has no problem caveating opinion as opinion and would generally not be willing to masquerade opinion as fact. A guru would be very hesitant to mislead anyone with certain exceptions, i.e. use of the morosophic (the wiseman masquerading as foolish) playbook, so to speak.

For one thing, that level of spiritual achievement (gnosis, da'ath, vishuddha) corresponds with the dark night of the soul during which time the person is stripped of that which they never truly were. This is where the concept of "born again" comes from: da'ath/death & rebirth, Phoenix rising, salvation, etc.

For another, that is the first level of spiritual development in which the person opens up a "tap" into "Intelligent Infinity", if you will. Where did prophets get their visions from? Some, maybe psychedelics. Others, possibly near death experiences. Some were likely spiritual gurus who had a "Divine router" to tap into that cosmic network of Divine/Infinite Intelligence. Such a connection would naturally entrain the prophet/guru/etc. into acting in Divine manners which, in turn, would entrain others into acting in Divine manners.

It would make sense that someone who is entrained to the Divine by an open connection with Divine Intelligence would be more effective than any charlatan at guiding students to "initiation" i.e. gnosis or gnosis & full enlightenment. It's a lot easier to teach others how to walk the path when you understand the path and have already walked it yourself.

I think this makes a lot of sense. The Bible says that you should judge prophets or others by the fruit they produce. Thank you for the deep response. I was wondering how you would know if youself or someone else has received/achieved enlightenment? So many snake oil salesmen out there and many cult leaders who have convinced many smart people that the leader has a connection to God, but I believe it is to the devil. I'm coming at this from a Christian biblical perspective and not a Christian religion basis. Thanks for your time.

Those are fantastic questions.

How does one know if one has reached enlightenment?

How does one know if another has reached enlightenment?

The answers to these questions have a significant amount of overlap, however, they are critically different enough to warrant some amount of focused response on each. Suffice to say, you'll have more to work with to figure out if you're enlightened as you have access to your own inner thoughts, whereas you do not have access to the inner thoughts of others.

How does one know if one has reached enlightenment?

Typically, there is some kind of extraordinary event and that event often involves some sort of “surrender”. For some, it happens while seated in the lotus position, meditating, like Buddha and many others of the Buddhist and Hindu traditions. The typical narrative involves the dissolution of the self along with an experience of what one might call “Cosmic Consciousness” in which one’s mind is all there is, i.e. there is no body. The consciousness simply exists in a state of pure, total awareness.

I think that’s perhaps one "flavor" of "enlightenment experience" but it is not the only experience that is an enlightenment experience. I will explain why.

If we look at Christian and many other religious depictions, we often see things we call “halos”. Let’s look into that a bit more. That sounds a lot like auras and auras gets us into the “human energy signature” conversation as scientists would be more prone to articulate it. The human energy signature is something that is known to science. Personally, I explain this based on the fact that our bodies, our blood, the air we breathe…it’s all just atoms with electrons orbiting them. Based on electromagnetism, we should expect those electrons to induce a subtle magnetic field around us. Typically, electrons flowing through a wire are a lot more orderly than the electrons orbiting the nuclei of the atoms in our bodies, so one might expect the magnetic fields created by coiling a wire to be much stronger than the human energy signature.

According to the Hindu tradition, the human energy body, aka the subtle body, has 7 primary energy centers they call “chakras”. According to the Qigong tradition, there are secondary and tertiary energy centers or points of interest that correspond to specific locations on the physical body.

Essentially, humans are born with the bottom 3 chakras activated. They are red, orange, and yellow. The heart chakra is green. The wisdom chakra in the throat is blue, the third eye chakra is indigo, and the crown chakra is violet. The crown chakra is also active and serves as somewhat of a cumulative dashboard indicator of the lower 6 chakras.

My understanding of what enlightenment is may differ from how some understand it, but I think anyone with all 7 chakras active is “enlightened”. The 7 chakras create the 7 colors of the rainbow which merge into white light.

This is what allows the enlightened to escape the reincarnation cycle and ascend to “heaven” which is, in my understanding, a dimension that exists beyond the apparent “ceiling” of our physical reality: light speed. This is why aliens are said to be interdimensional and UFO/UAP sightings have light anomalies as part of the reported events. Survivors of near-death experiences talk about going towards the light. They talk about how the light felt like unconditional love. We have enlightenment, illuminati, kether, and many more terms that all point at light.

So, what if the next “dimension” or as I prefer to say “density” of existence is one in which beings there have no physical bodies but rather have bodies of light? If angels and aliens are described as ‘beings of light’, it would make sense that aliens and angels are basically “cosmic upperclassmen” who have already “graduated” the stage of development in which human beings find themselves by achieving enlightenment, dying a physical death, and then ascending to that next density of existence. This would also make sense as science has a lot of trouble dealing with light, particularly the wave/particle duality and light speed. It would make sense if light was a ceiling of sorts for this density of physical existence.

If that thought process is correct, then it would make sense that an enlightened person would actually be somehow different, and verifiably so. This is the case, although verification brings its own baggage to the party.

Science knows that animals like birds and sea turtles navigate great distances each year with uncanny accuracy, using no advanced technology like maps or compasses or GPS like humans would tend to use in order to navigate so precisely. Scientists figured out that animals have a flavo-protein in their eyes called “cryptochrome” which means “hidden color”. Essentially, cryptochrome enables these animals to sense magnetic fields visually. This ability tis not limited to non-human animals.

Check out these links below:

https://hecshunting.com/about-hecs/how-animals-see-humans-wearing-hecs/

https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms1364

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9842609/

Some humans have unlocked magnetosensitivity/magnetoreception. If you think about it, hippies are prone to say that they can see people’s auras and hippies like psychedelics. Given the study linked above on LSD, that makes sense to me.

I don’t know that LSD is the only pathway to unlocking magnetoreceptive vision. I imagine near death experiences or siddhis could do that too. Siddhis are, in my understanding, what the Hindu tradition calls certain “powers” afforded to those who have earned them and activated the third eye, i.e. claircognizance, clairvoyance, clairaudience, clairsentience, etc.

Some evidence seems to suggest that the enabling of magnetosensitivity is not dependent upon being under the present influence of LSD. It seems there may be a permanent residual effect, meaning that completely sober people who haven’t touched LSD in 40 years, may still, 40 years later, be able to see people’s auras.

Someone who has magnetoreceptive vision should be able to visually identify enlightened beings. I believe this is one of the reasons that Native American Medicine Men and indigenous shamans engage in certain psychedelic practices. I think Medicine Men in particular are able to do what they do by visually assessing the aura of the patient, and they do it via the laogong qigong palm energy center. That’s right: palm reading isn’t totally BS. It all depends on whether or not the reader has magnetoreceptive vision.

This doesn’t exactly answer your question, however, it moves the football up the field so to speak. Now it’s just a matter of finding people who can read auras. In my mind, that means going to hippie festivals and looking for the right people unless you happen to know someone with a legit Medicine Man. That, or do a bunch of psychedelics until you can see auras yourself. Then you’ll have your own guru radar on-board so to speak.

Some other useful info for identifying enlightenment:

Whenever higher chakras are activated, it is called a “Kundalini Awakening” in the Hindu tradition. This is what Jesus was referring to in Matthew 10:16 with the serpent comment. Kundalini means serpent in Sanskrit. Kundalini Shakti, in the Hindu tradition, is a special bit of spirit energy (prana, qi/chi/ki, mana, ruach, scalar waves, the etheric, etc.) that typically lays dormant wrapped 3.5 times like a coiled up SERPENT around the root chakra. When higher chakras are activated, that serpent of spirit energy rises up through the “spine of the spirit body” to the height of the highest chakra being activated. Assuming my encapsulation of enlightenment above is accurate, then Kundalini Awakenings would also be worth your time to study them.

Dr. Lee Sannella M.D. wrote a book called “Kundalini: Psychosis or Transcendence”. It is excellent as it was written by a clinical physician. If you check it out, don’t skip the Appendix written by Itzhak Bentov. If you get that far, I would definitely recommend checking out Bentov’s book “Stalking the Wild Pendulum: On the Mechanics of Consciousness” and, again, don’t skip the Appendix. When I bought that book, I bought it just to read the Appendix but the whole book was face melting.

Essentially what readers of those books would learn is that there seems to be a somewhat consistent set of “symptoms” that people experience with what they called the “physio-kundalini syndrome”. One common thing reported by people who have experienced Kundalini Awakenings (higher chakra activation processes/events) is that it felt like their body was on fire from the inside. Some say “electric fire”. Personally, I describe what I felt as “intense pins and needles sensations throughout my entire body”. Some people experience involuntary body movements. I experienced some involuntary “mudras” which are just hand poses. Specifically, I was driving when it happened and for the 10-15 seconds while it was happening, I remember being unable to grasp the steering wheel because it hurt really bad to try to do so, like a really bad charley horse or muscle spasm or something. The fiery descriptions given by people connect beautifully to the ideas of the “fire of the Holy Spirit” and “baptism by fire”. It also fits perfectly with the etymology of pyramid, i.e. fire(pyra) in the middle(mid).

Some people do not experience that “sacred fire”. Some experience more orgasmic sensations. Some experience significant pain. For some, the process may be short and sweet. For others, it may last months. Some experience visions different from the aforementioned “Cosmic Consciousness of total awareness”. George Washington describes such a vision in his journal which is worth checking out as an example. The variations of experience make sense as each mind/body/spirit complex is unique, but on the other hand, it makes sense that many people would experience similar things.

Wow. Just wow. Thanks for the deep download of knowledge.

I tried to zap you. Let me know if it doesn't come through. I think my strike is weird on amethyst.

As requested, I haven't seen it come through.

I'm glad you found what I wrote valuable :)

I cover that content a lot in the 3rd hour of the Illegitimate Scholar podcast linked in my profile.

Since that episode, people who have watched it have offered me even more great puzzle pieces I didn't know existed that fit into what I said like a dovetail joint :)

Stay tuned. More is in the works.

I tried to zap again. #nostrhelp #helpnostr what am I doing wrong that I can't zap? I tried zapping 100 sats.

Sam Harris vs Wim Hof. I struggle with Win Hof because he seems focused around him and doing it how he does it. I believe he has good intentions but enjoys the ego. Sam Harris with waking app seems like a guru and talks about many different ways and to help people find what works for you by explaining options that others found success. I'm really early in my journey but was thinking about the difference between them and our discussion. can a guru still be a guru if they are to prideful or the ego is to large? I understand social media and the importance of putting ones self out there as a personality but to name things after you as if you claim breathing as something you came up with didn't sit well with me. Maybe it's not healthy to mention names but it was my thought of the day.

I do like Wim Hof's breathing technique. I learned about it listening to him get interviewed by Jordan and Mikhaila Peterson years ago. It was effective. I found it helpful as a "warm up" to meditation. It is like exercising your 4 wheel drive system on your Jeep or pickup truck once a month. If you don't do that, it will get out of proper working order and when you need it to work right, it will fail you. Our bodies have these emergency mode protocols. It's like intermittent fasting, ice baths, saunas, etc. We should subject ourselves to extreme conditions occasionally and keep those protocols in proper functioning order.

In short, the guru and the charlatan will come into conflict over what the truth is. The guru could debate the charlatan but the charlatan is a charlatan so they're likely to use underhanded debate tactics like logical fallacies and gish gallups and whatnot. The guru could refuse to debate the charlatan but the charlatan would use that as a tacit admission of defeat. If they did debate, there's a reasonable chance the both sides would call one another charlatans, prideful and egotistical.

An onlooker might think both are prideful and egotistical, disagreeing with them both, and preferring his own set of ideas.

Ultimately, objective truth is objective truth, so if the guru is correct but others dismiss him as "not receptive to the ideas of others" or "prideful and egotistical" or whatever they want to say about him, that's their opinion of him and not necessarily an objectively factual assessment of him.

I think this nicely ties back to the whole "judge a tree by its fruits" thing. We won't really know until we explore.

Ultimately, if someone says they have truth to offer, you won't know whether or not they're full of shit until you've explored what they have to offer, and oftentimes, done the necessary prerequisite scholastic work/research/learning to understand that truth in any meaningful capacity.

I should point out that the first chunk of "narcissist", i.e. "narcis", and the spiritual accomplishment called "gnosis" can sound EXTREMELY similar if pronounced so. Specifically I'm thinking of an English omission of that R in narcis, i.e. "nahhcis". That same set of sounds could work for gnosis.

I find this interesting because I can imagine that many who have achieved Gnosis have been accused of being a narcissist. Likewise, many legit narcissists would falsely claim to have achieved Gnosis.

Do you feel there is a difference between somatic breathing and wim Hof? I feel like wim Hof is a style of somatic breathing and was confused for a year trying to figure out wim Hof like it was a very specific technique. Once I found somatic breathing and other teachers discussing it then it all clicked for me. Maybe it's just my learning style but I feel that "rapid somatic style" might have been a better and more descriptive name than wim Hof.

I don't really have a robust working knowledge of various breathing techniques unless you count techniques related to working out or aerobic exercise or swim strokes or stuff like that.

Hof's thing I find interesting because you exhale fully before holding. I'd not really ever tried that to exhaustion before like he teaches. I've done breath holding competitions as a kid in the pool before but there you take a big lungful of air first, not fully exhaling like in this method. When I tried it, I got instant results, first cycle. Pins and needles in like the tip of my nose or my jawline...weird places for tinglies.

I have little knowledge also. Just trying to learn. It seems that holding with empty breath can be calming and full breath can be energizing. Also the rate of breathing can be give calming or energizing results. When you inhale for the wim Hof what type of inhale is it? Full extent of diaphragm, sucking through straw noise, do your lips purse and unpurse with each breath in and out. Thanks for your time.

You don’t enter the spiritual path perfectly balanced nor do you have to be so to discover things hidden to most. Also it would probably be good to keep in mind how Wim Hof got started with his practices. His wife committed suicide and battling the cold gave him the strength of will to not follow her down that same path. Also his breathing method while similar to others is distinct and would be disingenuous to call by any of the existing names. By giving it his name he is taking responsibility for the results of following his method as opposed to other methods.

What is distinct about his breathing style compared to other somatic styles? I'm genuinely curious because I want to make sure I understand if I'm applying it correctly. It seems that even his style has variations for calming or energy so there are even multiple styles/applications of wim Hof it seems. Maybe that's just why I'm confused by the name of it.

That is sad to hear about his wife. I haven't dedicated the time to all the history of these. Still going through my own history with these methods. Haha

Honestly I don’t know what all makes his style unique. Almost all of his content I’ve seen seems outside spiritual circles. The first time I saw him was on 20/20 as a kid and he was making Guinness World Records with his cold endurance. So I think a big part of his brand is bringing something like what Tibetan monks do to people that think spirituality is all in your head. As far a personal experience I’ve always been able to do something similar with the cold at a low level. I also was able to get to a 3min breath hold with that system and had some kind of high from it that lasted 24hrs. As far as I can see it’s a simple easy to accept for the spiritually wary to experience energy methods that were previously only for initiates. He also helped spread the cold exposure craze in the fitness community. So don’t look to him as a spiritual guru, but as a teacher of practical methods originally developed by spiritual teachers.

Honestly I don’t know what all makes his style unique. Almost all of his content I’ve seen seems outside spiritual circles. The first time I saw him was on 20/20 as a kid and he was making Guinness World Records with his cold endurance. So I think a big part of his brand is bringing something like what Tibetan monks do to people that think spirituality is all in your head. As far a personal experience I’ve always been able to do something similar with the cold at a low level. I also was able to get to a 3min breath hold with that system and had some kind of high from it that lasted 24hrs. As far as I can see it’s a simple easy to accept for the spiritually wary to experience energy methods that were previously only for initiates. He also helped spread the cold exposure craze in the fitness community. So don’t look to him as a spiritual guru, but as a teacher of practical methods originally developed by spiritual teachers.

There are dime a dozen gurus in South Asia. It is a circus of guru’s who are multimillionaires. Easy money.

I would bet the vast majority of "gurus" to which you are referring are charlatans, but there are probably some real gurus mixed in.

Calling one's self a tree does not make one a tree.

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True. Follow the money. I understand people need to make money but selling the "best" supplement or course and all the rest are horrible except mine is usually a give away to stay away.

Not all gurus operate the same, but if a person is a legit guru, they should have no problem managing to meet the demands of their biological vulnerabilities. Some aspect of their modus operandi would lend itself to such an income.

If they're someone like Eckhart Tolle or Sadhguru or Gopi Krishna, they might earn some money from selling books or speaking engagements. If they're someone like Bentov, Tesla, or Da Vinci, they might earn money by their genius inventions and ability to understand the universe in ways others do not. If they're someone like a Buddhist monk, they might simply be content with whatever is donated into their donation bowl each day.

I like applying an economic lens to such things. For example, Dr. Robert Gilbert's time is very valuable as the things he teaches are in high demand. He has a lot to teach but only so much time to allocate towards various endeavors. He understands the value of the material he teaches and of his own time, so, to scale his ability to educate people, he has paid online courses that people can choose to sign up for. I have no problem with someone earning an income by selling access to video lectures especially when he gives away a lot of information for free in interviews and on his own site.

I am prone to think that it is ideal for a legit guru to have passive income streams set up like books or courses because that frees the gurus time up to work on other books, other courses, etc. Ideally, eventually, proceeds from such income would be more than enough to handle the guru's own needs and the excesses can be put towards other pursuits like establishing centers for spiritual growth, charitable organizations, schools, etc.

Real gurus shouldn't need to resort to shenanigans to fund themselves. If they really have something legit to share with mankind, they should be able to get a following of supporters willing to voluntarily offer value in return for value received from the guru. This can manifest in many forms.