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BitcoinStu

1. a node does not audit all 1 billion transactions every 10 minutes

2. a node does not audit the network

3. a node validates transactions and validates blocks

4. it is impossible to audit the Monero network due to limitations created by it's privacy features.

Validate != Audit

Saberhagen The Nameless 1y ago

1. That's not what I meant, but I can see how I phrased it why you would. Any additional transactions every ten minutes indefinitely*

2. Ok, then what is the advantage Bitcoin offers?

3. What is the difference from a Monero user trusting their node to "validate" blocks VS Bitcoiner doing it?

4. While true in theory, in practice, virtually zero Bitcoiners take advantage of it's transparency to audit 1 billion+ transactions and any additional transactions every ten minutes.

So where is the advantage? You CAN audit, but DONT. You just leave a node running and pay no mind

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Discussion

BitcoinStu 1y ago

The advantage is that you can audit the Bitcoin supply but you cannot audit the Monero supply. Not everyone needs to audit the supply, a few people doing it will expose any inflation bugs that are present. Unfortunately this is one of the tradeoffs Monero makes, you cannot audit the supply and therefore have a very difficult time finding inflation bugs. And inflation bugs are real. Bitcoin in the early days required a hardfork to fix a catastrophic inflation bug. Such a bug would likely go unnoticed in Monero since you cannot audit the supply.

Saberhagen The Nameless 1y ago

"Don't trust, verify"

You're trusting someone will audit for you, but you can't even trust yourself to do it...

So again, how is that an advantage? What if the two people that audit are exploiting an inflation bug? How would you know that if you don't ever audit?

Agree it is a trade off Monero makes, but for the privacy and fungibility it gets it is worth it imo. Especially if practically no Bitcoiners make use of their advantage anyway.

BitcoinStu 1y ago

The point is that it is a way for users and developers to expose bugs that is not present in Monero. Not every bitcoin user needs to perform this operation for the network to benefit from it's ability to be audited.

I have audited the supply of bitcoin personally, it's quite simple to do. You just add up all the UXTOs in the set and compare it to the expected supply based on the block height. It's a few lines of code that any competent engineer can easily execute.

This is impossible with Monero. If you do not see why this is a major advantage in Bitcoin then I really don't know how else to explain it to you.

Monero, on paper, has advantages as a medium of exchange. The practical problems with using it as such is that it's extremely difficult to purchase it compare to Bitcoin, and even worse not many people would be willing to accept it as payment. Not to mention the potential legal problems with accepting it as payment in a legitimate business.

Saberhagen The Nameless 1y ago

Again, you are still bringing in trust relying on a third party very small set of users to discover an inflation bug for you + report it (instead of the massive incentive to covertly take advantage while they can)

It sounds like you are not auditing regularly which gives you little benefit

I see it as a theoretical advantage that would be great if all or many users did it, but the fact is extremely few do. Most Bitcoiners don't even run a node let alone audit.

Yes, it's true Monero is harder to purchase or swap thru restricted centralized KYC routes. But you shouldn't rely on that for a permissionless network anyway. Bitcoin/Monero are ultimately black market money so the legal stuff is tangential to the entire goal which is permissionless transactions (which are at odds with white market transactions which require permission to use in)

BitcoinStu 1y ago

Monero is harder to purchase P2P as well. Easy KYC routes to purchasing do not only benefit those who use them, they benefit all network users. If I have to go to the darkweb to transact with my money that's a problem, not just for me, but anyone I expect to accept my money as payment for goods and services.

But I don't even use bitcoin to purchase goods and services, I give zero fucks about that. I use it as a store of value exclusively.

Saberhagen The Nameless 1y ago

Not really. Relatively easy to go any crypto <-> Monero p2p and/or no-KYC.

P2P + no-KYC:

https://unstoppableswap.net/

https://basicswapdex.com/

https://hodlhodl.com

ETH & BCH atomic swaps https://wc2-web-examples.vercel.app/

Serai and Bisq2 around the corner

no-KYC instant swap aggregators/exchanges:

https://trocador.app/en/

https://orangefren.com/

https://intercambio.app/

https://www.wizardswap.io/

https://tradeogre.com/

And many more.

But sure there has been a damper on direct fiat <-> Monero with LocalMonero closing. Haveno will fix that for good.

Monero is also the largest trading pair on Bisq by far. It even rivals Bitcoin in number of buyers and sellers on the market.

Easy centralized KYC routes are just a shaky foundation that will become a target and major regret of dependence in the longrun. Price will plummet when those easy chokepoints are cut off or regulations increase and encroach. DEXes and p2p trading is the only thing that is unstoppable that matters long run.

Oh, well then you miss the entire value prop of Bitcoin.

hh 1y ago

Bisq has Monero too.

tuco 1y ago

Keep in mind that some people like ArticMine think that getting KYC Monero is a good idea. Might sound contradictory but after a second thought is not so bad depending on the approach