All STEM majors should require applicants to show a genuine appreciation for literature and the humanities.
The more an someone is disdainful of the humanities, the less fit they are to pursue science and technology.
You must perceive beauty.
Discussion
Yes, but the humanities have also been largely captured by “studies” programs so it’s not so cut and dry.
You can read and enjoy Shakespeare and Dante on your own. I’m not saying you should need humanities credentials for doing STEM, just an appreciation so you would know there’s more to life.
And that would also help progress STEM fields and advance them more virtuously. This is important.
Having an education in the liberal arts gives you more tools to appreciate, understand, and discuss our shared heritage, but it's also possible (though harder) to develop those tools on your own.
Also, you don't need to be skilled in analysis of the classics to be conversant in them on a more casual level. Both are good.
Exactly. I don’t expect everyone to read the Odyssey in homeric greek. However, I’d like most people to know who Odysseus is.
Kids should know who he is! It's a super engaging story for little kids—heroes, monsters, shipwreck, the underworld, and revenge.
My brothers and I used to listen to kid-friendly adaptations of the Iliad and Odyssey as audiobooks on long car rides.
I think it comes down to education cultivating an understanding of "What are you trying to change? And why was it there in the first place?" and endless other narratives, each of which can be found through a tailored education system that allows its students to explore ideas on their own, while thematically guided by educators.
Yes! STEM doesn't answer the "why" questions; only the liberal arts can do that.
I think you will find that "studies" programs have no great love for literature or the humanities.
Who they are currently attracting ? What type of people ? Indeed they have no love for the humanities because they almost can’t relate. I dare say they want to pervert since they can’t relate.
The disgruntled, mostly, I presume.
And the rejects. Their bitterness has poisoned the schools and the universities.
Well, it makes more sense to me, when it's something foreign. Like Japan Studies or American studies because you want to move there or work with tourists.
It’s the content that could pose issue. As well as the intent behind it. It’s fine if there are Japanese studies or English literature studies, for whatever reason. As long as the intent is to learn more. Not to subvert or water down.
You can’t seriously say the Classical Music is problematic or Shakespeare needs to be diluted for the modern audience and still claim to be for the humanities.
The whole of the modern world needs to understand beauty. But we hate anything that can be concretely defined as good because it makes demands upon us.
Brutalism and utilarian design are things precisely because Beauty makes stark contrast with the vileness of our desires.
Elegance, yes, and fitness of purpose.
Education has been for the cultivation of virtue and it must remain so.
I love this formulation. I had not heard similar, but it rings true. I am homeschooling most of my kids and the curriculum I use does this but I often focus in my own mind on the three Rs.
I actually fell asleep last night thinking how nostr and nostr:nprofile1qqsggm4l0xs23qfjwnkfwf6fqcs66s3lz637gaxhl4nwd2vtle8rnfqprdmhxue69uhhg6r9vehhyetnwshxummnw3erztnrdakj7qfqwaehxw309ahx7um5wghx26tww4hxg7nhv9h856t89eehqctrv5hsz8rhwden5te0w35x2cmfw3skgetv9ehx7um5wgcjucm0d5hsjmvd7t could help me with homeschooling. Alexandria is a no brainer. But I have a dream where my kids can do the majority of their schoolwork on a reMarkable2 like tablet.
We use them as notebooks for the kids and it is amazing for organization, but horrible for grading since file sharing is a nightmare. But if they could submit their note books as a nostr event to a school relay I could mark it up with a grading event. Asciidoc wouldn't work unfortunately so that is why I was thinkinging it over as I fell asleep.
This is most adorable. A perfect example of what I’m talking about.
What better motivation to build tech than this ?
Yeah, I'm also big on the homeschool aspect.
That was one goal of adding communities.
I was thinking of adding workbooks and teaching guides to the literature I upload, but I'm loving the idea of online homework and paper submissions/grading. Interesting.
It could be like the an introduction to a book. Do it!
I used to write them for the homeschool co-op my children were in.
I was thinking that you could have a 30040 for the book and one for the teaching guide and another for the students' workbook, then a 30040 joining them all together. Like homeschool bundles. Then people could create different bundles, but using the same book.
My mom would have loved that when she was building her own homeschool curricula.
What was in that curricula? I’m curious.
Lots of literature (mostly classic up through the mid-20th century), history (ancient, medieval, early modern, American), mathematics, science, grammar, and a small handful of other things.
We learned to spell, then write cursive, then we studied vocabulary, then we just wrote.
My mom was an English major and taught me almost everything I know about formal writing. I sailed through my first year of college from the momentum she gave me in that regard.
We also pretty consistently had some sort of exposure to music. I took two years of piano lessons, but I spent much longer signing Gregorian Chant with our church choir.
Having parents implicated in your education is paramount.
Maybe this is the most important thing we’re lacking. Capable parents overseeing the education of their children.
But not to the level of tiger moms and helicopter parents obviously.
And "capable" here isn't too high a bar for anyone college-educated (or even high school-educated). Most homeschool parents learn alongside their kids.
Yup. It is kind of my end goal for whatever I build. I want learning to be a book, a stylus, and a slate. No learning to use an app. Just read and write.
Paper is actually horrible for this since you end up with too much of it. But make the slate a magically infinite notebook, then you can learn any time anywhere. I still prefer physical books, but having a library on you magic slate is ok too.
I like the idea of hand-writing notes in the margins of an #Alexandria book, on an ePaper tablet.
#DevGoals
Oh that would be wonderful. A infinite paper notebook. I’d pay serious money for that.
Well, we're going to have highlights and kind 1111 comments, so it's just about hooking into the touchscreen or the pen, and using their driver to transfer the information into the note.
Try the reMarkable2. Seriously. I got one a few years ago to do math on/jot down any of a million ideas, because I am always losing papers. As soon as I got one I knew I needed more for the kids because keeping homework straight was a nightmare.
It actually helps with the perennial "show your work" problem. We still have that, but the mental block of trying to be space efficient is removed. They can just scroll the page further down or add a page. Also there is less hassle in fixing mistakes since, unlike pencils, stylus erasers don't leave a mark.
The only bugger with remarkable is that they are very locked down. That is the appeal. Apps are a distraction, but it would be nice if I could have the files rsync to another device or something.
Does it have a browser?
We're going to have a non-websocket version of Alexandria, that should work on ePaper.
No. It has a file structure and PDFs with layers. That is it.
Ugh, PDFs.
Yes.
Without using PDF they'd have to convert handwritten text to machine encoding, which isn't always accurate.
Yes. I have to begrudgingly admit that PDF is the best available solution for mixing text and vector drawings. They save a path and a tool. The path itself, I think, encodes angle and pressure.
Couldn't you just build your own and include a dedicated browser that only runs Alexandria?
Yes. There are more open alternatives. Like the Supernote that are android based that you could put some effort into. I really don't like embedded browsers though. The idealist in me recoils from the waste and bloat.
How do you get your files off the tablet ?
They have a cloud and a USB web interface. If you don't want to use a USB cable you have to pay for cloud access. Then you can do Dropbox integration, get an app on you phone etc. it's annoying.
Curious how it compares with say an iPad. I understand it’s kinda more elegant and feels nice, but aside from that? I was just looking into obsidian for use with math formulas, and it looks like some plugins exist that allow you to paste equations from pdf direct into notes as latex (using some AI behind the scenes) and another which allows you to scribble with a stylus (technically it seems like the math plugin only works on desktop but still pretty cool if it works). I’m thinking this is the best I can do, but sounds like you may have some insights
I cannot compare it to a modern iPad. I have not tried one. I imagine an iPad has better features, color, responsiveness, integrations etc.
But I didn't want better. I wanted to write. With a reMarkable2, you turn it on and write, it doesn't do anything else. It is nice to look at, nice to hold, and nice to write on.
If you have a could subscription. It does have OCR but I am not sure it works well with math. I haven't tried it in a while. I don't publish, I just use it as a notepad. Math still seems best done by hand. I don't need to hunt for symbols, I just write them down, same as Euler, and Gauss did.
The main benefits over paper are endless scrolling pages so you can work a problem to its end, and staying organized.
The drawbacks are poor scrolling if you need to look at prior work, smaller than paper screen size, and lack of export options.
Also, while you can make straight lines by holding your stylus down, there isn't a way to make a circle, so diagrams are limited by my own limited artistic ability. I 3d printed my own compass to use. But it is never around when I need it.
Thanks for the detailed reply. I feel you on paper being king for learning math, but I was hoping to copy key formulas and proof snippets I could easily refence from an ever growing slew of pdfs I’ve got, for easy reference. And they’re ugly when I write them down (too many sub/superscripts, vectors, etc).
I may have to consider replacing my paper notebook with this remarkable device though. that might be the perfect stack for me!
You can certainly put all you math PDFs on it and add note pages to them or write on them etc. There is copy/paste functionality but I don't think it works on the text layer. I vaguely think I tried it awhile back for the same reason.
That’s cool. Gonna seriously consider one as replacement for notepads 🙏
One last question if you don’t mind. Nice folio worth spending on? Looks nice (probably dont want keyboard version), but 170 for the nicer one seems steep
My wife has the nice one, but she got me the sleeve by mistake. I have to say. I kinda prefer the sleeve. It has a place for the stylus whereas with the book folio you have to rely on the magnets. Granted the magnets are really good and a satisfying way to hold onto the stylus, but it is harder to trust when you are on the go.
I also like using the device by itself. If you want more protection it you are out and about a lot you can get a much cheaper plastic folio from Amazon. They aren't as durable as the one from remarkable but they probably do a better job protecting the device as they are rigid and the official one is not. We have those for the kids. They have dropped them. The case cracks but the device is fine.
As for the stylus. You can get them cheaper elsewhere but not sure I can recommend it. The magnets are weaker, the response not quite as precise and the eraser side isn't accurate.
Thanks again for further explanation. Very helpful. Think I’ll go with the sleeve, and I’ve gotta have the eraser side extra on the pen.
I’ve got it in the cart but gonna wait a day or two to decide for sure, Christmas just happened recently after all 😅
If we could convert handwriting to Ascii or Unicode, we could totally do it.
ePaper is a crap experience die to law refresh rate, and poor visibility in real light. Try out the daylight tablet and stylus. Its a upgrade on e-paper.
It is barely acceptable for what I need it for. It is the right direction.
I'd love to try a daylight.
Part of the charm of a remarkable, though is that it really is just a notebook. No apps etc. also I charge it maybe once a month. That feels like magic.
I was encouraged to pursue writing for most of school; it's quantum luck that I went with writing computer code instead of words. Both are literally awesome to me.
That’s amazing. I have felt the impact of it things like reading or drawing on my career and my life all together.
Nah ... humanities is all woke cultural Marxist NS, and it's yet untainted STEM that can see through it, map out the Marxist infiltration and tactics and expose it.
“Yeah, reading William Blake is woke. Just crunch numbers and write code bro.”
LMAO ... Modern humanities focusing on the "Free Love" aspect of William Blake and how it aligns with woke Queer Marxism (aka LGBT).
Great choice. Thanks for making my point. :hangten:
Also ... Here's a Marxist website praising Blake:
https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/smith-cyril/works/articles/blake.htm
Modern humanities also claim Tolkien wrote the perfect marxist fantasy with queer elements, while the author himself was an absolute monarchist and a devout traditional catholic.
Should I not read Lord of The Rings now ?
It's not what you read, it's how you interpret it, or hoe you are taught to interpret it
Marxism is a religion posing as "politics" and "sociolgy" etc... and it's overtaken the humanities and indoctrinating kids into seeing everying through a Marxist lense of criticism, which they call being "awaken to a critical communist conscientiousness" (aka woke) and turning kids into Marxist cult activists.
You can keep that crap out of STEM, thank you.
Fine, don’t listen to me, stay in 2019. Let these wokists have a monopoly on the institutions that generate and maintain your culture, and then keep wondering how they’re gaining ground.
I'm all for learning humanities from a non-woke non-Marxist perspective, but when you say everyone "must learn humanities," they're going to run off to the nearest college, and instead of actually learning humanities, they'll be turn into leftist activists.
I didn’t say you needed credentials or degrees in humanities. But an appreciation.
Here you go, https://libgen.is
Download Sir Gawain and The Green Knight and read it.
To me I think age and support is the issue. Kids are vulnerable. Most kids are told they need to make the decision on college at 16-17, idk about you but I was all alone in that decision, and I had 0 appreciation for arts or humanities. Personal life was tough at that age, it was the only thing on my mind, I was just working construction after school to make enough money to get out of the mess I was in. At 18 you have no skills, no support, no money, no one wants to hire you, what do you do? Someone offers you a way out you take it. I was not special, many kids had the same experience. Many drop out and entered the labor force.
I don't think college alone turns kids into Marxists. Not being exposed tough real life problems to occupy your time and being told "this is the way the world works" in a classroom vs experiencing how the world works before going into a classroom.
I agree in theory with that, but in practice there’s too much woke Marxist shit.
Filter it out. Don’t go into debt to get a liberal arts degree. You could read John Milton on your own.
Look at history, most successful scientists were also artists on the side.
Without an appreciation for the humanities, you get robotic nerds who are fully disassociated from the real world. The other side of the medal for all the woke crap. All of it needs to go.
Bring back the polymath.
How does one enforce such a requirement? It's impossible to prove whether one is genuine. The best they can do is require relevant courses, which most colleges do. Mine did.
It’s very difficult to enforce it.
You can gauge it out during interviews and essay reviews and factor it in while examining applicants. However, this requires an organic cultural shift within the educational institutions.
Me at 18 only cared about technology. I was "forced" to take an arts class, I think it was a world music class, I guess I was fun, but I couldn't tell you a thing I learned in those classes. Between that class and western history were my only A+ of my college career XD
That’s hilarious,
We were required to take an arts class too, it was about writing music and the final assignment was that we had to submit an original composition. Here’s mine if you want to listen.
In the US, public schools are so mind numbing that it isn't a mystery why so many college students are uninspiring. They were first uninspired and broken down by the state to meet the level of the lowest common denominator. Everything is for a corporate testing company.
Personally was never in "public" schooling but it still guided all of our courses, but yeah it's a machine. No wonder I rebelled so hard. Even the college I went to has something over 50% of graduates get federal government (or gov contractor) jobs. I think everyone I know and their families from school is government employed.
This isn't feasible unless the broader culture actually values this. They don't. Most colleges would go broke doing this.
It's a self-feeding mechanism that is tough to break. Frankly, I think the best chance we currently have is to get the best people in we can and then expose them to the stuff during the program. People then have to choose for themselves. Hopefully the broader culture will change over time. I do think private (and leaner) colleges would have a good chance of making this work though.
It's a complex issue, but I agree with the intent.
I fully agree. But talking about it raises awareness, and then we’ll take more steps into changing the broader culture as you said.
Absolutely. And I don't think it has to be all or nothing. Colleges can have small programs on the side for excellent students.
Unfortunately, most of my college experience was just as uninspiring as all my years in public government schools. We need a complete rebuild for college systems. At least in the US. The whole thing is poisoned. They need to fix themselves before they can try to fix the applicants or expect them to value the humanities. Hell, how many colleges even value those things anymore?
Act like a machine, for a machine like job, get treated and automated like a machine.
Yes, thank you !!
If you don't care for the humanities, or what our collective human values are, then what values are you driven by? Everything to be done has a design philosophy for it, being ignorant to it is just negligent.
Education, state sponsored or not, must move beyond industrialization and leverage the many paths that can be explored through a well tuned AI. The educator (not teacher) guides this learning path. Having a higher level understanding of not only teaching how something is done, but why its done.
The why is as important as the how. That is if you want to have agency over the skills you acquire.
