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so you think bitcoin is only worth more and more every cycle because it is first mover and poor little monero would otherwise not be pegged to the dollar as it practically is

no, that's because monero has no SoV capacity, because whatever you moranos say about it being auditable, it's still questionable whether there is not an open ended possibility of an inflation bug and people are only using it for the black market so its basically being used as an intermediary only, nobody is holding it, nobody

so, whatever you think about the "value proposition" of bitcoin is obviously missing more than just FMA to why bitcoin is staying ahead of inflation

it could be the fact that its auditabilty is unquestionable and complete maybe?

when a commodity wants to become a medium of exchange, its first use is always store of value

precious metals were this originally, just a way of holding a lot of value that didn't decay, so, it stores the value

then they made it easier to transact with by minting it, so the cost of trusting it was lower. this is actually the same thing as the auditability issue - it makes certainty about the quality of the asset cheap to assess, not like a fancy gold necklace that could just be gold plated steel, where proving it's worth something is expensive

without the ready, easy to determine, and certain evaluation of the value and provenance of the asset, it can't be a store of value and thus monero is fundamentally broken as a money from its initial premise

just get over it, after 13 years or however long it has been, monero has done nothing to become more widely adopted than bitcoin

bitcoin could and still is being used for black market

and it's also good for ETFs and lightning network use, even this ordinals shit couldn't be done on monero

monero is too narrow in its purpose and its real use case is very much limited to the "value proposition" you speak of

otherwise, explain why bitcoin has got so many other uses giving it additional value, and monero doesn't

because nobody trusts monero, monero can't be counted with absolute certainty, nobody is holding it so nobody wants to hold it

until you get that loop of holding - demand for holding you have got fidget spinners

mbl 1y ago

"people are only using it for the black market"

What people said about Bitcoin 10 years ago ?

"bitcoin could and still is being used for black market"

Only fool are using Bitcoin in black market 🤣

If you have a brain, you will use Monero over Bitcoin, isn't obvious ?

"and it's also good for ETFs"

Well, it depends on regulation acceptance and Wall Street, it have nothing to do with Bitcoin or Monero itself

"because nobody trusts monero"

I trust Monero for preserving my financial privacy, not Bitcoin

"nobody is holding it so nobody wants to hold it"

And so ? Is it the purpose of Bitcoin ? Isn't to be electronic cash ? Isn't to be a transactional system, rather than a holding system ? Bitcoin wasn't created to replace the dollar, rather than Gold ?

If you save on Bitcoin and use dollar for everyday transaction, you miss the whole point of Bitcoin

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Discussion

ponymontana💜⚡ 1y ago

1) agree, bitcoin is used mostly in fiat market and this is a shame.

2) bitcoin can be used for blackmarket easily. Monero could be part of a money laundering strategy for very expert people, but today with lightning it is become completely useless.

3) IDGAF about etf, thats not a point. ETF on monero is impossible as it wpuld be just a tend-to-zero function.

4) If you trust monero for preserving your financial privacy you are delusional. You should do the proof of work of understanding how bitcoin works and take some real privacy for you.

5) money have value if people hold it and want to hold it, this is just a basic and important concept. Still, I think you should own monero if you think its valuable, have fun.

e8cd2bec... 1y ago

1) Agree

2) Anything is possible. Bitcoin could make a comeback for black markets if it gets better privacy layers. I would love that. It's funny that many point to Bitcoins price saying how it is right when it comes to that, but then pull a 180 and say the market is wrong about Monero when it comes to black markets. No one uses Lightning there and Bitcoin is falling out of favor. Just look at any of the popular DNMs

3) Yep ETFs miss the point. A permissioned Bitcoin IOU is oxymoronic

4) Historically you are right, but it's a great digital cash.

5) You're wrong about that. It's always been MoE -> SoV. Saifedean and his ilk have mislead many by popularizing this narrative:

ponymontana💜⚡ 1y ago

about the 5), "transmitting value trought time" is your first definition of money, and is a point where bitcoin excel and monero fails. With lightning bitcoin become better in trasmitting trought space. Still monero is also bad in trasmitting trought space, as is designed to being pretty unverifiable as more people would ever start using it.

007dffeb... 1y ago

First, it's not my definition it is the definition of the most renown Austrian economists who popularized the field that Bitcoin maxis are ostensibly fanboys of (Menger, Mises, Rothbard, etc)

Monero is constantly transmitting value though space just fine especially where i matters (free markets AKA black markets). If it becomes a SoV is yet to be seen since as it's currently in the MoE phase which is a precursor to SoV.

Gold total supply was never "verifiable" (and still isnt), but it still became money for humanity for thousands of years.

Yes, lightning is also transmitting value through space in tinier amounts, but almost entirely through custodians which defeats the entire purpose of Bitcoin (removing trusted third parties). There is almost no reason to use Bitcoin over fiat if you are trusting third parties and asking permission anyway. Maybe you guys will fix it's UX deficiencies at some point, and proliferate self-custodial permissionless transactions, then you'll have a stronger argument.

ponymontana💜⚡ 1y ago

lightning frankly is just good todsy in UX, with a solution like phoenix you have bolt12 for hinding sendere/receiver and a fantastic non-custodial UX just with a smartphone app. If you are a bit more techie and want to try something more powerful and sovrein you can try zeus that start working well.

If you want to take the things serioisly you can always run a node.

I things the UX is became better than monero, its only that people understand how a shitcoin works, and lightning need too study a little the new thing.

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1y ago

i've heard monaros citing the "can't scale to everyone" argument which is absurd because everyone can't use monero either

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1y ago

they don't understand that lightning uses onion routing to send payments, it's pathetic

🤦🏼‍♀️ 1y ago

they do, you just don't listen.

Nope 1y ago

Lightning users love to point this out, but it's only somewhat similar to onion routing.

Every node on Tor is directly connected, or has the potential to directly connect, with every other node. Lightning Network payment channels do not fully-connect.

The entire network and the network topology is also publicly known for routing nodes and natural incentives of this mean traffic consolidates to a few large nodes negating any remaining similarities or benefits of Tor.

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1y ago

so, is this your 50th new npub or what?

Nope 1y ago

So is this your 50th attempt to dodge or what?

Nope 1y ago

No, what happens is Bitcoin maxi say Monero can't scale, when not even lightning scales without 100+MB blocks right now. So it's a moot point you guys bring up.

ponymontana💜⚡ 1y ago

the point is, from these words you are saying, you have no understanding of what you are talking about.