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The weird thing I notice about some of the people who state they are most opposed to identity politics, is how ironically -- and seemingly unknowingly -- they are enmeshed in extreme forms of it.

If your personal identity is tied to a belief system of any kind, and you consider attacks on that belief system to be a personal attack. And, you tend to constrain your personal relationships to people who share that belief system, you are simply part of identity politics. That is what identity politics is.

It doesn't really matter what the belief system is: if it's progressive or "woke" politics. Or right-wing populist politics. Or even if it's categories like bitcoiner vs nocoiner -- if your personal behavior, and community behaviors fit the definition I laid out in the second paragraph, then you are participating in identity politics.

And yes, identity politics is pretty bad for anything resembling a functioning pluralistic society.

Sikto 2y ago

I’ll attempt a little push back to further the discussion.

You’re simply substituting one identity badge for another. Your identity is defined by a beliefs system that reads, “My belief system is superior to yours because I’m able to surround myself with diverse thinkers that challenge my thinking.” You’ve placed yourself in a category, by placing others in the “out” group which you have previously stated to abhor.

You ar playing the same game, and wrapping it up in language that obfuscates what you are doing.

Your tribe may be better for a pluralistic society, but it is still a tribe nonetheless, that has in group and out group members.

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Discussion

Mike Brock 2y ago

Am I though? It's true I have a sense of identity. But I'd argue it's grounded in a far more humanist grounding, that tends to not demand people subscribe to my orthodoxy in order for me to hold cordial relations with them.

Sikto 2y ago

I would define cordial relationships as different than friendships. I do not know you, but I find it difficult to believe you and I would be friends if I did not align with your belief system. I don’t think you would take it as a personal attack, but I do not believe you would spend what limited time you have with an individual that was not open to exploring their beliefs in a humanistic way.

Mike Brock 2y ago

Not sure about that. I make friends pretty easily with people I disagree with quite easily, if they're the kinds of people who are open and curious about opposing views. I became friends with #[3] over a three hour argument, for example.

Sikto 2y ago

This was my point. You are able to establish relationships with people who you have assess to be open and curious. Even though you may disagree, they abide and align to your belief system which you use to identify yourself. Booth is part of your “in” group. The “out group”, are those that don’t align with your belief system. These people may be classified as ignorant, close minded and shallow.

We all do the same thing, you’ve just elevated your belief system above the others because you deem it to be superior.

Mike Brock 2y ago

I guess I'm a certain reducio form of the argument, you're correct? But I'd argue it's straying far from the underlying point, which perhaps I thought was implicit, but now I'll make it explicit, by revealing the normative claim: a society that tolerates diverse opinions, and a polity that accepts the idea that not everybody gets their way, but everyone is of equal franchise, is a good thing.

Mike Brock 2y ago

*in a certain reducio form of the argument.

Sikto 2y ago

Yes, this part of your note is easily understood and we are in agreement.

I was pushing back and exploring this part of your point:

“If your personal identity is tied to a belief system of any kind, and you consider attacks on that belief system to be a personal attack. And, you tend to constrain your personal relationships to people who share that belief system, you are simply part of identity politics. That is what identity politics is.”

nobody 2y ago

I’d also point out that those critical of identity politics are probably not using the same definition of it that he is. As is so often the case in communication, it is difficult when both sides aren’t using the same lexicon.

Sikto 2y ago

True.

Mike Brock 2y ago

They tend to be using a definition whereas a certain subset of left-wing politics is the only thing that counts as identity politics, yes.

nobody 2y ago

It's interesting that's where you went with it.

I was rather referring to identity politics tied to immutable genetic characteristics like race or gender.