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Before mixing came around, from my recollection, there was no need to mix or coinjoin. Privacy preserving techniques were created as a reaction to the human intervention in the system.

If governments didn't spy, monero might have not needed to be invented.

Like all good discussions, one starts out purely on a technical level, marveling at the proficiency of these great inventions. As it develops, we realize that things are the way they are because of human nature.

We can make bitcoin fungible, and private, but it needs special tools, some knowledge, and some additional cost. Monero does that by default. But bitcoin is the one that commands the higher dollar price at the moment, and that is what matters to the mainstream. Also, one must consider exactly what percentage of bitcoin has actually been used in a crime. How many of these coins are tainted? Apparently enough to make a monero maximalist drop their bitcoin. But this is the only example of bitcoin not being fungible, that has been presented to me. Unless there are other examples of bitcoin not being fungible.

A fiat currency example of this is are the Euro and Indian rupee. The Euro used to have a 500 note, and the 5000 Rupee note was recalled a few years ago by the government. Those notes were made useless. If the US government decides to eliminate the $100 note, it is the same idea. Government and humans take the fungibility away. If everyone used bitcoin on their own private wallet, even if a bitcoin was used in a crime, it is only on KYC type exchanges that is tracked.

This is why many folks will save in bitcoin, but spend in monero.

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Discussion

Saberhagen The Nameless 1y ago

Mixing and coinjoins don't give you privacy. Nothing is hidden. All amounts and connections are still visible. It is merely ownership obfuscation. Pseudonymity - not even true anonymity.

Mixing and coinjoins don't make Bitcoin fungible. They do the opposite. You stand out. Coinjoins and mixing taint your coins and distinguish them from non-coinjoined coins. You bifurcate Bitcoin from within.

There are still plenty of reasons to want privacy even if government didn't exist:

-$5 wrench attacks

-Public knowledge of your spending habits

-Price discrimination

-Avoid targeted advertising and manipulation

-Business competitors seeing your financials and who you interact with

https://sethforprivacy.com/posts/fungibility-graveyard/

Delta Charlie 1y ago

I've always said privacy and security are two different practices. Just as one hand washes the other, both wash the face. To address your examples, with which practice applies most:

-$5 wrench attacks - security

-Public knowledge of your spending habits - privacy

-Price discrimination - privacy

-Avoid targeted advertising and manipulation - privacy

-Business competitors seeing your financials and who you interact with - privacy and security

On a pure technical level, without human intervention such as censorship and surveillance tech built on top of the monetary system, tainted bitcoin would technically still work. If humans create an environment, such as a parallel economy, where censorship doesn't exist, it is equivalent to spending cash that may have been used in an illegal act. You personally did not commit the crime, and if your environment is one of censorship resistance, you are only guilty when proven guilty.

If you are in an environment, where surveillance exists, you are correct that every person that used that cash will be targeted.

In today's environment, this is such a specific situation, that it is highly unlikely to happen to the common person.

We are a niche, within another niche, within another niche: cryptocurency > bitcoin/monero > privacy tools. So these conversations are great for thought experiments, content generation, and to develop ideas and make the tech better. Only time will tell if these tools are even going to be truly necessary.

nostr:npub1tr4dstaptd2sp98h7hlysp8qle6mw7wmauhfkgz3rmxdd8ndprusnw2y5g this is enough content for an Opt Out Podcast, to include nostr:npub1ppjkfvk0ek3g584gp7qp9d3znwdznadchet7q2aez9r27620n9zs45xvx2 and nostr:npub14a6q6xvt4wuv0wpdpfr336e4fweldtu6np3ehpw55h83xuw2h2zsgyz6rn

Saberhagen The Nameless 1y ago

Agree, there is a lot of overlap.

If you had privacy the $5 wrench attack wouldn't be likely or even possible in the first place (if they didn't know how much you owned, how much was spent/received, and that you even spent/received crypto to begin with)

The consequences of lack-of-fungibility are separate from the state. Even if there is some future where the state no longer exists, miners can still censor individual transactions for economic or ideological reasons. Look at Luke Dash Jr attempts (failed) being made with ordinal and BIP47 filters. If his mining pool were larger, or larger pools agreed with them, it would be successful. That has nothing to do with the state.

People judge and act on their beliefs. That will continue to exist with or without a state.

Surveillance will still be possible without a state.

Let's make it very difficult/impossible for that to be done with money.

There are also economic reasons why even without a state fungibility is desirable. Making every coin uniform and identical to any other removes friction (no unique histories and taint to consider)

Thanks for the conversation

Saberhagen The Nameless 1y ago

Serendipitous example. Not good for fungibility that this is even possible. Also bad because miners are able to apply targeted censorship.

https://iris.to/note1tvlpadyxm8m6dcs93z9wus6npawh9flfyzrvuusq8q39y2naa7pqrh6du6

Delta Charlie 1y ago

On a pure technical level, without human interruption, I think the fungibility argument holds strong. Unfortunately, human can build technology on top of other technology that can change the fundamentals, and our perception o what is going on.

This is definitely an interesting addition to the mempool site. Are there any more articles about this?

Saberhagen The Nameless 1y ago

I'm not aware of, or can't remember, any articles specifically about this new mempool.space feature. I think the feature has been available for several months though