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Laser

No, Mary is not a co-mediator with Christ.

No, Mary is not the mother of all graces.

No, Mary is not the source of all mercies.

No, Mary is not cooperating and mediating and interceding in confering grace on anyone.

No, Mary's hands do not touch any graces that are bestowed on Men.

No, Mary does not recieve graces from Christ, then dispensing them out.

No, Mary does not participate in our redemption.

Lies and deception.

#ToChristAlone

Ancap Revolt 1mo ago 💬 3

I like the orthodox view as I understand it.

She was the best a human could have been without being the messiah, she needed to be to birth the messiah because in Genesis, it prophecies that she will be in total opposition to sin.

So I take it to mean that she never consciously chose to sin (or rather, always chose not to). Not that she didn’t sin though, she was subject to sin nature, so she wasn’t good enough to recognize her “little” sins.

I definitely can’t get behind praying to her, or anyone other than God. It’s a major thing preventing me from being totally orthodox.

How can a dead person intercede anyway? It is egotism, worship of the self through the reverence of dead men. Christ alone can intercede on our behalf. Mary *was probably* the best woman, and even the best *man* behind Christ. She had to be the new Eve to bring the new Adam. But she’s dead to us. She cannot help us directly. Christ be with her.

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Discussion

Laser 1mo ago 💬 3

It's worse. It's a making of a gnostic godess. Elevates her to God's level. She participates in redemption WITH GOD.

No. This is satanic.

Laser 1mo ago 💬 1

Appears to be the apex node of feminism to be completely honest.

JOSE BAM 1mo ago 💬 1

😆 the apex of feminism is a woman without sin? LMAO

Ancap Revolt 1mo ago 💬 1

No. The apex of feminism is worshipping her for not sinning.

The Bible makes it clear she would oppose sin. It also makes it VERY clear not to worship her. It does not recommend praying to the dead. Dead men cannot pray for you. It’s ancestor worship.

JOSE BAM 1mo ago 💬 1

Praying TO the dead or praying FOR the dead? Two very different issues.

Anyway, in Protestant churches might be an alien concept but in Orthodox and Catholic Churches it is a very important practice.

The departed remain alive in Christ and can intercede for the living.

Laser 1mo ago 💬 1

Christ is the intersessor.

Christ doesn't require other intercessors.

Thinking so is heresy.

JOSE BAM 1mo ago 💬 1

Christ requires nothing. Men do.

What about the Holy Spirit? He intercedes for us too.

Or am I an heretic for saying it?

Laser 1mo ago 💬 2

Holy Spirit is God, ding dong.

Laser 1mo ago

"Christ requires nothing. Men do."

Yes, men need Christ.

JOSE BAM 1mo ago

No shit, Sherlock.

Ancap Revolt 1mo ago

I agree. For most little c catholics, it has morphed from reverence to idolatry.

I think it comes from lust, thinly veiled. It’s the same thing that causes us to worship girls like Britney, Ariana, Charli, etc, taken to the extreme.

Men come to think she is perfect, even though she obviously wasn’t the messiah. Sure, she was a great woman. But she was not God’s masterpiece. The same energies that cause lust cause this delusion. She’s only idolized because she was a woman.

Like you say, the making of a gnostic goddess. We just **need** our goddess don’t we 🤦‍♂️

Zsubmariner 1mo ago

This is all complete slander and lies. If you want to disagree with Catholic theology, at least learn what it is

Zsubmariner 1mo ago 💬 1

Couple things. The Marian theology and veneration of Eastern Orthodox churches is almost identical to Catholicism. Second, do you ever pray for anyone but yourself? Have you ever prayed for anyone or asked anyone to pray for you? Saint Mary is the Mother of God. The HUMAN mother. She is in heaven. People in heaven are alive, not dead. (Check your Bible if you need to.) She is praying in the presence of God. She is his human mother. Does it not make a little bit of sense to you that we would ask her to pray for us?

Ancap Revolt 1mo ago 💬 1

We cannot communicate with the dead.

I know Catholics are afraid of literature.

Deuteronomy 18:10-12

In all ways that matter to us, Mary is dead. We exist (clutch your pearls for this one) in reality. We cannot see dead people here. You don’t need to ask her to pray for you. Everyone in heaven is constantly praying for you.

Zsubmariner 1mo ago 💬 2

Everyone in heaven is alive. Do you think that the mother of Christ, who stood at the foot of His Cross, is in hell? By your logic, why pray at all? "Pray" means make requests "Mother Mary, please pray for us, now snd at the hour of our death." Or "St. Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle."

Jesus told us to ask. Of course He knows. But He commanded us to knock. And it doesn't hurt to ask others to pray for you too. Especially the saints and angels LIVING in heaven, in the presence of the Lord. Especially not His own mother.

Ancap Revolt 1mo ago 💬 1

Alright genius. Name one person who is actually dead. Is hell death?

I pray because I’m praying to God. Why should I pray to someone I can’t possibly communicate with, asking for them to pray for me?

Why not skip the middleman and pray for myself? Why not take accountability for the fact that I myself am a saint even if I’m imperfect? All sin is equal in the eyes of God. So the “Saints” are all just as wretched as I in the eyes of God, for they *all* betrayed Him just the same.

Maybe Mary never betrayed God, but she was still born of sin. In the eyes of God, she is fundamentally no better than you or I assuming we have faith in Christ. What sets her apart is that she has *perfect faith in Christ from her election*. But that doesn’t mean it’s more effective to pray for her to pray for you, instead of doing it yourself. Christ literally came to intercede — *FOR YOU!*

Zsubmariner 1mo ago

Yes, hell is eternal death. Heaven is eternal life. Hell is eternal death that never ends, total separation from God's love, that goes on and on. And yes, it is crowded. That is basic Christian theology.

You ask why could anyone else's prayers help you? If you are predestined, how could ANY prayers help you? I don't know, the whole idea of predestination makes no coherent sense to me.

We think of it like this: Christ is King. If you are going to the king to ask for things... You go to his throne to make a request... You see his mother there. Will it help your cause if you show great respect to his mother? Or give her a cold shoulder? Will that be taken as respect by Him or insult? If you ask her to ask Him also to grant your request, would that not help your cause?

Respect to the mother is respect to the Son.

All the saints and angels are alive and in the presence of God. They are there because they were holy enough. Some are more holy than others. Heaven is a hierarchy of holiness. Why not ask the holiest souls possible to pray for you? The ones closest to God. They can hear you if He allows it. Mary is the one who stands closest to Him. Just as she did at the foot of His Cross and when she bore Him in her womb.

By the way, we believe it is blasphemous to say that Jesus was born of an unclean vessel. He protected her from original sin in the moment of her conception. God would not make His human flesh grow out of a sinful body. He chose to create Himself out of a sinless Virgin, in every sense. A sinless virgin in the line of David. What kind of mother do you expect the King of Kings to have?

Ancap Revolt 1mo ago 💬 1

Ask your priest. I’m no Catholic but I bet he will validate everything I say.

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1mo ago 💬 2

the doctrine of intermediation is uniquely catholic. protestantism was the first step of breaking out of that by disintermediating access to the Book.

strictly speaking, you can pray to anyone, even Satan, and any of the angels and saints.

but worshiping them is forbidden, not because of jealousy (which is absurd, what could He who is All want for that we can give?) but because it's a waste of your time. the founder of judaism's earliest recorded deeds involved precisely the debunking of this idolatry, placing a weapon in the hands of one of the idols and claiming that the idol did it. oh, abraham's daddy was not pleased but he couldn't legitimately rule it out if he was faithful to his dead carved statues.

i hotly dispute the idea that the purpose of Jesus ministry was to implant the idea of intermediating access to God via another man (or apparent man). it was to teach people that they can just go direct, following his lead.

Zsubmariner 1mo ago

Not quite. Eastern Orthodox and all Christians have always interceded for each other with prayers and asked for intercession, including to saints and angels. It shows faith, for one thing, that the saved are alive in heaven praying for you. Protestants have a lot of exotic ideas now, but that got going in the 1500s.

We are definitly not permitted to pray to the dead. saints and angels only (meaning we know from apostolic authority that they are in heaven). To do otherwise would at least be presumption. Or worse, knowingly trying to communicate with the damned.

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1mo ago

Intercession ON REQUEST. Interfering is what all evil people do. Fools gonna be fools but pushing on people is not holy behavior. It's violence.

Why would someone take advice from known liars, anyway?

Anyhow, I see no point in intermediaries. Only fools worship or trust in dead symbols. When it comes to judgement, your credulity is examined too. Trust in anything but God is second to worshiping idols.

Zsubmariner 1mo ago 💬 3

I'm not sure I would want to explain speaking against the honor of His mother, at my particular judgement.

Ancap Revolt 1mo ago

Tell me sinner, how did I dishonor Mother Mary?

You dishonor her. Fuck you!

Laser 1mo ago 💬 1

How is directing the entirety of our devotion to God "speaking against" Mary?

Zsubmariner 1mo ago

How is loving, respecting, honoring and paying attention to His mother not directed toward God?

Angrily stripping God's mother of the titles and respects we pay her is NOT respectful towards Him. It's actually blasphemy against Him. Just like if I angrily insisted that your mother was not deserving of respect, it would be an insult to you.

We are called to direct all of our love toward God through charity. Caritas. One of the three Christian virues. To love God with all your mind, heart and soul, and to love your neighbor for His sake.

I think a lot of the confusion about Christianity could be resolved if everyome would just learn the definitions of words.

Ancap Revolt 1mo ago 💬 1

The first fucking thing I say is that she is and will forever be the best human in history behind Christ 🤦‍♂️

Zsubmariner 1mo ago

That is correct. That is why we love and honor her. She stood at the foot of the Cross and endured her perfect Son being tortured to death before her eyes. Who can say she did not participate in the suffering of Christ on the cross. As we are all called to do. To pick up our own crosses and follow.

She said yes at every step. She reversed the disobedience of Eve with her obedience. "Let it be done to me according to Thy will." "Do as my Son commands you." She was and is the perfect woman. She has the highest place in heaven of all created beings. The human body of Jesus Christ came from her flesh. How can we say she did not participate in our salvation?

How could she not be the most perfect human, other than Jesus, who is both man and God? Would it not be an insult to Him not to revere, venerate and include her in our own respect for Him?

This is not idolity. It is PART of loving God.

Saying that He "used" her is blasphemy.