Nostr Web Client

Nostr has almost enough #devs and enough beta-testers, but way too few project managers and alpha testers.

The left side of the development cycle is just "dude sitting alone, hacking wildly on his keyboard, with no plan". Which brings results barely better than cheap AI.

Silberengel 11mo ago

There are three main solutions to this efficiency problem:

1) form intra-project teams (group of people working in a tightly coordinated fashion on one system)

2) form inter-project teams (group of people working in a loosely-coordinated fashion on multiple systems)

3) some combination of both 1 and 2

The key here is COORDINATION. Identify the stakeholders, discuss and plan with them, straighten out the specs and the interop, promote and test each other's implementations, make joint announcements, discuss problems, etc.

That's the sort of work @elsat has been doing and I'm trying to do, and I think there needs to be more focus on this. The NIPs repo is now too large in size and scope, to have everyone just hanging out in every discussion. We have to actually put effort in, to selecting where to hang out, now.

All the people working on relays: form a team

All the people working on books: form a team

All the people working on teleconferencing: form a team.

All the people working on AI: form a team.

All the people working on blogging: form a team.

And so on.

nostr:nevent1qqsqejydjphh7d2r5sgnh8c40st2nz78mvg32q6l7ddg24tlu3cd9dgpz3mhxw309akx7cmpd35x7um58g6rsd3e9upzplfq3m5v3u5r0q9f255fdeyz8nyac6lagssx8zy4wugxjs8ajf7pqvzqqqqqqyw9j36q

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Discussion

Silberengel 11mo ago

Nobody wants to do this, I know.

More coordination leads to slower development, but higher overall quality and interoperability, and the focus -- until now -- has been entirely on speed.

But this is what you have to do, to keep an open protocol from just turning into a hot mess. You have to voluntarily build discussion pools around wider topics.

The NIP repo is the wrong pool because one NIP can cover n topics and one topic can affect n NIPs.

calvadev⚡️ 11mo ago

This is exactly what we marketplace devs have been doing. Updated NIP-99 spec coming #soon™! 🤝

cc nostr:nprofile1qqsypwwgtll74lqu4huvxzjwtjyxvrlkujt35rw8y026ke6ttesmg5gpzemhxue69uhkummnw3ex2mrfw3jhxtn0wfnj7qghwaehxw309aex2mrp0yhxummnw3ezucnpdejz7wzpxlr nostr:nprofile1qqsvswpas8wjgsr8gkmggzd7grt8y8pszq55vsr8lnzs5fwalyfe2jgpzpmhxue69uhkummnw3ezuamfdejszrthwden5te0dehhxtnvdakqzynhwden5te0danxvcmgv95kutnsw43q4wvq4v nostr:nprofile1qqsrppmpgpe3nckflth7xsd9e7shqc8z2vsw034mfce78uh7ela3zfspzfmhxue69uhhqatjwpkx2urpvuhx2ucpz3mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuerpd46hxtnfduq3samnwvaz7tmrdqh8qatjwpkx2un9d3shjtnrdakspyr84r nostr:nprofile1qqs8nxvpg9shg0ez0yqx4vgvlkpm6vadlu3ushjan5y5nlwkp783jqgpzemhxue69uhhyetvv9ujumn0wd68ytnzv9hxgqg5waehxw309aex2mrp0yhxgctdw4eju6t0qyv8wumn8ghj7urjv4kkjatd9ec8y6tdv9kzumn9wss0u6aq

Silberengel 11mo ago

Woo hoo! LFG🚀

PABLOF7z 11mo ago

should be done in the open.

you can't know all the stakeholders and people who are working on something adjacent to what you're doing if worked in private, unannounced, groups.

AceaSpades 11mo ago

Definitely an open channel, just requires an invite for now. I think we should totally scoot out to a more-open forum. Let’s chat about it!

Silberengel 11mo ago

Be careful about moving to open forum, rather than open-invite, as it can actually raise the hurdle for new entrants by forcing them to perform in front of an audience.

Sync 11mo ago

Couldn’t agree more 🙏 I think we did fine with the open-invite group, kept conversation focused and there was already enough to go through with our small group and reached out to others we saw on the network that are building on the same spec ✌️once the draft is out more comments will help reshape.

Silberengel 11mo ago

1) It actually is possible because it's often only a couple of people and they tend to make themselves known and you can approach them.

2) The whole point of self-organisation is that the people organizing do so under their own terms. If someone puts down rules of engagement and demands they follow them, then they have a boss.

3) Wake me up, when you aren't doing your best teamwork at conferences, or at an island retreat, both of which almost none of us can attend.

Eric FJ 🪬⚡️ 11mo ago

Definitely not unannounced or closed… we may not have the loudest voice on Nostr yet (compared to people working on other applications), but we’ve been openly posting about it since it formed and are working in nostr:npub1gzuushllat7pet0ccv9yuhygvc8ldeyhrgxuwg744dn5khnpk3gs3ea5ds public repo prior to making the commit! I’d say it’s open to anyone who has skin in the Nostr markets game…

AU9913 11mo ago

I would do the PM thing, but only if the team uses a full node tech stack, since we're gunna build shit for nostr, we should use stuff built on nostr, and submit issues, bug reports, etc. To support them

MichaelJ 11mo ago

Nostr apps aren't quite mature enough to do a full-Nostr project/team stack, but we're getting close.

AU9913 11mo ago

That's my point. 90% of the way there. And the other 10% is minor bugs that the devs of those projects address at high speeds

The Beave 11mo ago

Uh... No. I'm not sure what devs you are referring to, but... No.

AU9913 11mo ago

CICD DVMs and Kanbanster devs litterally implement the features I request and bugs I submit within the same week I submit.

The Beave 11mo ago

Cool.

That's 3.

AU9913 11mo ago

I mean what else do you want? As a dev, I need a place to track work, a place to store work, and a place to run work. I guess you can add a place to talk about work, but that clearly already exists.

The Beave 11mo ago

All the rest of the things needed to build nostr stuff. Like, most code it still on github. Friggin ew.

We also need a calendar system that can be integrated into any nostr client. That's VERY sorely lacking.

Silberengel 11mo ago

It's easy to get off GitHub, already, (other than as a mirror), with a self-hosted gitserver and Nostr repo event.

The Beave 11mo ago

Then why has that not been done for anything of real import like the nip repo?

Silberengel 11mo ago

Because they like GitHub.

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 11mo ago

because they are all homosexual

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 11mo ago

calendar points in the right direction

we need email, calendar, private video/audio conference, client facing support logs, issue boards, kanbans, document repo systems, blogs, threaded discussions for fans and devs, crowdfunding integrations, instant messaging with threads and that functions as CLI for most of the above as well

probably some accounting systems would help also, bonus points they are bitcoin native

The Beave 11mo ago

Do we email, though? I'd rather not...

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 11mo ago

email and instant messaging are the same thing in my opinion

The Beave 11mo ago

They should basically serve the same functions, yes.

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 11mo ago

this fact alone hints at an architectural issue in both instant messaging on nostr and the pop/imap protocols

they are instant messaging, yet they pile up like forever data that 99.999999% is completely worthless

this is why my idea of proper instant messaging (including large, richtext messages) should be cached but not archived, and for the most part, deleted

that is, it's primary conveyance is pure relay, no caching... caches are specialised relays that you set up to subscribe to catch your messages and store them for later... if everyone had some kind of "chanserv" for their messaging (including everything, really) you could cut out the whole relay list concept altogether and instead replace entirely with outbox where for most cases you simply send your messages to the relays where other users will read them, and those relays will be subscribed by their home and office chanservs that will archive and make these accessible to the users via the relay only relays that do middleman service

there's a whole vision i have in there about that, maybe that does give you some hint at it tho

Silberengel 11mo ago

Put it this way. The houses exist, but the rooms are just bare walls.

We consider these all useful prototypes for defining the event structure and helping people understand the functionality, but they're not enterprise systems.

Silberengel 11mo ago

That's a serious 🚩, sir.

Silberengel 11mo ago

You're talking to the person who sent nostr:nprofile1qqs8qy3p9qnnhhq847d7wujl5hztcr7pg6rxhmpc63pkphztcmxp3wgpz9mhxue69uhkummnw3ezuamfdejj7qgmwaehxw309a6xsetxdaex2um59ehx7um5wgcjucm0d5hsz9nhwden5te0dehhxarjv4kxjar9wvhx7un89uqaujaz back to the drawing board on something tiny, like logins, for the fifth time in a month.

Silberengel 11mo ago

No way. I've been working with this stuff for over a year and it's still barely alpha. Completely burnt out, trying to test GitWorkshop.

Silberengel 11mo ago

And it's all missing most of the essential features.

Silberengel 11mo ago

They don't even notice everything that is missing or broken. I am tired of filling other people's boards with feature requests and bug-fixes.

If we're the ones with the ideas, then it's gonna be our board, that we write to. And our team, that gets the feedback. And our company, that produces the product.

Silberengel 11mo ago

We've been the only large team actively trying to do that, but nothing works smoothly enough, or has a large enough feature set, for exclusive productive use, yet.

We're assuming that we'll have to build our own Nostr tech stack and then use that, but that has always been the plan. Hence the nostr:nprofile1qqsggm4l0xs23qfjwnkfwf6fqcs66s3lz637gaxhl4nwd2vtle8rnfqprdmhxue69uhhg6r9vehhyetnwshxummnw3erztnrdakj7qfqwaehxw309ahx7um5wghx26tww4hxg7nhv9h856t89eehqctrv5hsz8rhwden5te0w35x2cmfw3skgetv9ehx7um5wgcjucm0d5hsjmvd7t name.

Our first step is integrating Nostr with the new OneDev instance, so that we can read/write tickets to the issue board we host on https://gitcitadel.com

Silberengel 11mo ago

nostr:nprofile1qqsq7pslujvn5pp3ggzje3qqfua45lyrnrfrsj68emztfe7qpzvwt6qprdmhxue69uhhg6r9vehhyetnwshxummnw3erztnrdakj7qfqwaehxw309ahx7um5wghx26tww4hxg7nhv9h856t89eehqctrv5hsz9nhwden5te0vaex2etwwdhh2mpwwdcxzcm99ukv33hp is also trying to use Nostr stuff, but it's all such a hot mess that it's been mildly traumatizing, and we've been wandering from one app to another, for over a year.

Silberengel 11mo ago

We're also giving up and building it, ourselves.

AU9913 11mo ago

K I guess I'll DM you on slack about this then because that's what I wanted to do to and since I got on the slack I've not seen anything related to that.

Silberengel 11mo ago

I think you're missing half the convos because you're only in one room, or something. We have like 7 rooms.

Silberengel 11mo ago

Oh, yeah, you're in hardly any rooms. 😅

Let me go fix that...

Silberengel 11mo ago

Slack must be eerily quiet, for you. It's like 50 posts per day.

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 11mo ago

wat slak?

Silberengel 11mo ago

We've got like four different chats. 😅

Trying to eventually get chachi going, on our private relay, and then we'll merge them all.

Silberengel 11mo ago

At least, we only have one main gitserver, now, and it's not GitHub. Baby steps.

Silberengel 11mo ago

Okay, added you to more rooms. Sorry, about that.