Yawn đ„±
Discussion
Very well put.
I love capitalism btw. Always have. Always will. Iâm 100% pro capitalism.
I know. Thatâs why I used you as one of the poster children.
Whatâre you a commie?
Absolutely not, but that is a very typical response.
Ok then whatâs the alternative system youâre proposing? (Other than capitalism or communism)
I certainly donât have all the answers but capitalism obviously isnât and has not been working.
Corporatism â Capitalism
Capitalism aka freedom to transact without interference from a third Party (government) is the absolute best system
Unfortunately this is the lie we have been told byâŠcapitalists. It has never been free from âgovernment â, capitalism is the government.
Corporatism is government
Yes and capitalism is corporatism.
You should probably learn about what you are talking about. If you don't know the difference in corporatism and capitalism you aren't educated on this topic.
If you can tell me the difference, I am open to learning from you.
Corporatism is the state organizing society into corporations subordinate to the state
Capitalism is free market not controlled by the state.
We agree very little but we do agree on some aspects. My questions to you would be: When has capitalism not had interference by the State? Or, when has capitalism not used the State for interference?
So because government has always been shitty you blame capitalism?
The State and Capitalism for all of recorded history has been shitty for the majorityâŠyet you blame one? Do you also blame all religion for the crimes of âgod(s)â?
Capitalism being turned into corporatism is the fault of the state. You are blaming capitalism for the states actions.
I think you are blaming anything but capitalism for the oppression of the working class.
I think you are a commie who doesn't want to admit you are a commie
lol, well I donât really attached myself to anything but if i were, it would be anarchist. I do appreciate you name calling instead of addressing my questions.
I'm an anarchist, I'm not name calling by saying you are a commie, commie is just short communist. You sound like a communist.
Very well, I asked you what in particular makes me sound like a communist?
Talking about oppression of the working class and blaming capitalism for it.
Please direct me to the parties to blame for the oppression of the working class? I will take current news or historical references.
The State
If you were actually an anarchist you would understand this
Why do you blame the State?
You clearly aren't an anarchist lol
Gate Keep much? I donât believe in ruling over any one, personally or by permission. Whatâs not anarchist about that? No kings, no rulers.
I'm not arguing with you all night dude, believe what you want, capitalism is p2p transactions permissionless. Not the state setting restrictions on what you can and can't buy and at what price points. That's the last gonna say.
Sell your bitcoin
I was willing to have an exchange with you despite you calling me a cuck, but it seems like you donât have anything to say.
How bout we try âproof of workâ or just pay for what people produce? For profits companies are unsustainable and not fair. In order to have âprofitsâ, you must steal from the laborer.
Profit is the only reason people with savings forego present consumption in order to take a risk by accumulating capital with the hopes of providing higher valued goods and services that will in turn allow them to consume more in the future.
Capitalism is what happens when property rights are respected. Or how Said likes to put it, itâs what happens you leave people alone
I respect that you responded but you did not answer âwhat is the definition of profitsâ. You gave me your opinion and a flawed but valid response to you.
Profit is whatâs left over after one covers the expenses for everything that is needed to produce a good or service. In other words the signal that what one is doing is valued by the market and sustainable. A business that cannot produce a profit will soon be parted from its capital.
My response was not flawed. It is exactly what happens when property rights are respected. We know that because we can see how humans act. We are not talking quantum mechanics here
I run a business and have run a business that is based on no profits. It has been running for almost a decade and all the producers produce more and take home more every year. So maybe you can understand why I believe your understanding of capitalism and âprofitâ may be incorrect.
If âprofitâ is left over from all expenses, that means the laborers are being stolen from or the consumer is being ripped off.
You can certainly choose to run a business that breaks even on purpose. I donât deny some people derive more value or satisfaction from having their employees earn a bit more and their costumers have slightly cheaper goods than from being able to accumulate more capital and wealth.
The business that are more profitable will be able to grow more and be able to provide those services and goods to more people adding value to their lives.
My understanding of capitalism is not incorrect. Itâs really not complicated. It boils down to a system that respects property rights, which incentivizes people to acquire capital for the purpose of producing higher valued goods and services. The capital will naturally flow to whoever can use it best and manage to keep and increase it.
What your saying is no different to a business owner that takes the profits and donates them to charity.
Employees voluntarily enter into a contract with the employer, so no they are not getting stolen from. They are more than able to negotiate higher pay. And customers voluntarily pay for the goods snd services, so unless the goods and services are falsely marketed no one is getting ripped off. The reason they get paid a fixed salary in most cases is because they are not taking any of the risk the entrepreneur is taking. They get paid whether sales are good or not. The owner takes the risk so he enjoys the upside if the business is profitable or bears the burden of going out of business.
You would greatly benefit from reading any Austrian economics books. I would personally recommend Principles of Economics by Saifedean. Happy to send you a free pdf.
Iâve read plenty of Austrian economics. I know how capitalism works. Itâs much like the American Constitution, either it failed to prevent State corruption or it enabled it.
I believe in free markets, thatâs why I spread ideology and not legislation. You would be wise to research who creates the âbarriers to entryâ in modern global economies.
And yet you think at will employees are being stolen from? Doesnât sound the Austrians teachings landed
Capitalism is not legislation
Even if you donât like capitalism the alternative is not respecting property rights, which is a no go obviously.
Your beef is not with capitalism (what happens when people can own stuff).
Your beef is with the state giving preferential treatment to some business also known as cronyism.
Or with the decay of morality brought about by the state destroying the nuclear family and religion
The state didnât create capitalism in case that was not clear
âCapitalism is not legislation â that seriously is no where near historically accurate. You mean to tell me that not legislation has ever been enacted for âprofitâ of a company, group of individuals, or sector of the economy?
Here is a real stick in the wheelâŠcapitalism can also be its own religion.
Yes, the state can pick winners and losers. Cronyism is bad, no one is arguing to the contrary. However, that does not invalidate the merits of capitalism.
Most people donât fundamentally understand what capitalism is or why itâs the system that leads to the most prosperity and is morally superior.
They just see Google paying the state to give them special privileges and cry capitalism is evils and broken.
They are fighting a straw man the same way you seem to be.
But we can agree to disagree
The labor theory of value was debunked a long time ago.
What is the âproof of workâ theory?
Not related.
Okay
No, really, it's not.
Labor theory of value debunked by Carl Menger: [Principles of Economics](https://mises.org/library/book/principles-economics) (1871}
Has nothing to do with hashcash proof of work that was incorporated into bitcoin. See nostr:npub1art8cs66ffvnqns5zs5qa9fwlctmusj5lj38j94lv0ulw0j54wjqhpm0w5's [The Genesis Book](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CSG6C6GR?tag=bravesoftwa04-20&linkCode=osi&th=1&psc=1&language=en_US).
Without labor, there is no service or product. Without expending energy, there is no mining bitcoin.
Unless you have learn to change the laws of physics, there is no debate here.
If value/price is determined by labor or work inputs, explain a drop in price. Was there somehow "negative work"? The labor theory of value is bunk.
> It is no crime to be ignorant of economics, which is, after all, a specialized discipline and one that most people consider to be a âdismal science.â But it is totally irresponsible to have a loud and vociferous opinion on economic subjects while remaining in this state of ignorance.
-- Rothbard
Youâre a fucking retard if you think the economy has anything to do with âcapitalismâ today.
Dumb fucking fuck.
That quite literally makes no sense.
Capitalism either led us to current status or never existed ever in your beloved âfreeâ form.
Kindly,
Retard and dumb fucking fuck
You have two options:
Capitalism or Socialism
Weâre currently leaning heavily socialist if you havenât noticed.
Retard.
There are only two alternatives, centralised planning or decentralised planning.
Capitalism or communism. There are levels of communism/socialism when part of society is decentralised and other parts are centralized planning.
Arguing that we could have a 'third' system demonstrates low IQ
How bout we try âproof of workâ or just pay for what people produce? For profits companies are unsustainable and not fair. In order to have âprofitsâ, you must steal from the laborer.
Why do these guys always equate non capitalist to communist? It seems to be the most popular false dichotomy regarding the subject. If you challenge their religion they resort to boomer proverbs and Red Scare tactics.
Capitalism is the cure against poverty!
âAlways willâ is such a bizarre addition
Why would I ever stop loving capitalism?
People leave and change religions everyday. Divorce rates are pretty high. And people get tattoos removed all of the time. I donât know though. Maybe you get sick of the political influence and corruption. Maybe you become the victim of environmental degradation. Maybe you realize the rampant income inequality. Maybe you get tired of the monopolies and oligopolies. The encouragement of consumerism and very high time preferences is a good reason not to as well. One of the most detrimental effects is the exploitation of labor and rent seeking behaviors. These cause the most class division. There are certainly benefits to enjoy that result from capitalism but when people make it part of their identity itâs like they lose the ability to be critical of it.