I got asked about follower count again today. Why does my follower count go down when I delete public relays (in our list) and replace them with filter.nostr.wine?

I’ll give you one final explanation to rule them all. First, let’s go over how clients calculate your follower count.

1. Your client sends a request to all your connected relays asking for accounts who follow you

2. Relays answer back with the events requested

3. The client aggregates the event total and displays it

Each relay has a set limit on how many stored events it will return per request. For some relays it’s 500, others 1000, some as high as 5000. Let’s say for simplicity that all your public relays use 500 as their limit. If you ask 10 relays for your followers the max possible answer you can get is 5000. That won’t change if you have 20,000 followers or 100,000. You may get back a “different” 5000 each time, but you’ll still cap out at 5000 because that is the most events your client will receive.

Our limit on filter.nostr.wine is 2000 events. If you replace 10 public relays with only filter.nostr.wine, the MOST followers you will ever get back from our filter relay is 2000. That doesn’t mean you only have 2000 followers or that your reach is reduced in any way.

As long as you are writing to and reading from the same public relays, neither your reach nor any content was lost. That concludes my TED talk. I hope you all have a fantastic day and weekend.

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Discussion

I hope this is helpful :)

#[4]

Thanks for the details although never mind for me with 200 followers 🤓

Thank you for the zaps as always, very generous.

And don’t you worry, that follower count is going to be PUMPING.

Always hats off to builders of this wonderful community! Gn 🌎

“Why does my follower count change”

Great explanation:

#[0]

Which is why as clients we need a better method of calculating this.

Excellent note.

I generally just assume I have between 1-1000 😅

And better understandable simple english explanations.

And what are notes?who creates them?Will there ever be explanation to this?

This reply is a note and you just created it

Then why am i given a liked notifications of w/c i don't recall i created?

Reply to self, just beautiful.

Exquisite thinking going on right there.

Talking of deign though, is there a drawback to having such exquisite out of the box design that feeling reluctant to change the placeholder avatar becomes a thing?

I joined nostr after reading about the design and protocol and finding it pretty interesting. The followers calculation is the most stand out UX anomaly.

It leaves me with more questions than answers. Namely, how do we get an accurate count?

And should apps like Damus cache the follower count for a day or so, rather than ask relays each time?

Should follower count even exist in the UI if it can not accurate? Being an apologist for tech is not going to scale to mainstream UX.

I am starting to feel that trying to imitate Twitter is a bad idea for Nostr apps. Nostr apps should reduce clutter and focus on its unique strength - censorship resistant RSS feed.

Great explanation. Followed and ⚡️

This is great…I was wondering

Thank you🤙

Any idea on what is the long term vision for that?

For me its stop caring about that dumb number.

We’ve all become programmed to obsess upon it as our only indicator of value. Let the engagement and zaps be your indication.

As many have said on here over and over, I have less than a third of the followers I had on twitter here and get 10x the engagement. Same was true when I had 10%.

Technically speaking you could batch the queries (annoying) or ask more relays (slow). Not sure what other real time options there are.

I agree. 🙌🏻 was just thinking about a possible mass-adoption. I think we should not underestimate what this number still means to a lot of people.

Great explanation! NostrGram is different in that it has its own caching server database that indexes about 150 relays and shows how many (unique) followers you have across all of them. So you get a more accurate accounting of all your followers. Not that follower counts mean much. Engagement is what really matters.

Definitely something clients that aggregate on their own can do much better than in real time so NostrGram definitely has the edge there.

and exactly! I keep trying to tell people focus on engagement. The numbers will handle themselves.

Very useful 🙏

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Thanks for the lesson!

I'm having notification issues myself... i can't open any, if i try it breaks

Yep, the issue is with the expectation created and trying to duplicate the centralized model.

Maybe we shouldn’t do that or recreate a focus on follower counts.

An idea I had for UI would be to show no counters for following and followers. If a user clicks on followers just display “Here’s a sample of 500 (or whatever ####) followers we found. Get to know them.” Show those. 🤙🏼

This is a great idea too. Personally not a fan of needing a publicly glorifying no of followers. But the the ability to influence though has pros and cons and often ties back to # of followers so abandoning that might miss a large market segment - religion, leadership and cult ties back to this influencing concept let alone social influencers.

Is there a risk if clients just takes the max return from any of the relays, and should relays inform what’s their stored events as part of their specs, should users want to reflection of a max count ?

I agree. I just think it is a constant issue of people believing they’ve been censored, throttled, etc. when it’s actually a technical issue that is not understood. Either resolve the issue or explain it better to the user.

I personally think the default should be don’t show it and for those who really want to see it loads. I like how IG has an option to hides the likes to a post. If a user clicks on a post where the counter is hidden they have to count it themselves.

You are absolutely right. For IG, removal of ‘likes’ metric is applicable for personal accounts but visible for verified and business acct - maybe because the purpose and usages ? Metric was easy to figure out, but follows is complicated - this convo can take us down onto centuries of history lol .

This was funny. “You have followers? You are jesus?”

https://twitter.com/nocontextbrits/status/1629975959108481025

Fantastic explanation of follower count. I love that followers don’t really matter in the same way.

This 👇

#[2]

This provides some info:

#[4]

Yup! Exactly what Cameri said. If you’re curious how follows counting works you can checkout this note: #[8]

Nostr.wine currently limits max tags per event to 2000, so following over 2000 people will result in your “new” kind 3 event not being stored correctly. I’m open to increasing this limit but it might have performance implications.

Here’s some info on follow counts.

#[2]