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I understand perfectly well what you're saying, it's just illogical and wrong.

I provided evidence, you declined to accept it.

If you think a genetic sequence coding for a trait above the bound of irreducible complexity is simpler than a deck of cards, you aren't informed enough to evaluate the claim.

We have tail bones for the same reason we have an appendix; because that's how we were created.

Why should I even need to prove any of that? You don't have an alternative explanation of origin at all, so there's no need to choose if only one choice exists.

"Firmament" doesn't mean a flat earth lol. Check your dictionary. It means the expanse of sky.

MAHDOOD 1y ago

You really don’t understand what I’m trying to say. I will make one final attempt but if you still claim it’s illogical then I won’t bother anymore.

Artificial selection is the act of choosing which traits to eliminate and which traits to reproduce. This is how we’ve bred animals like dogs, cats, and cows while also breeding plants like fruits for sweetness. Creationists/religion claims that god is actively creating everything. But DNA does not get passed down actively. If I artificially eliminate long fur cats by killing them off from my group of cats, after several generations of breeding, there will be no more long fur cats in that same group. Dna gets passed down automatically. There is no active creation here. Religion claims that god is creating everything actively. If religion claimed that god created the blueprints for life and then started life and left everything alone then I’d be more willing to accept that because that is a passive process.

Idk what you mean by above the bound of irreducible complexity. It sounds like word salad. If my claims are illogical then refute them simply without the word salad.

Having a useless tailbone is also evidence of retarded design if god created us. The same can be said with the appendix. We have little to no use for it and it would kill a lot of people if it weren’t for modern medicine. The appendix in other animals is used to break down plants. As we evolved to eat more meat, natural selection slowly began eliminating the appendix.

You made the claim that god created everything. You made the claim that god exists in another reality. But you have provided no evidence other than “the Bible said so.” Since you refuse to provide any evidence to your claims, I will assume you have no evidence and that your beliefs are baseless.

This is a picture of a firmament:

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f0xr 1y ago

I don't know where you're getting your information, but the Bible doesn't say God is "actively creating everything," whatever that's supposed to mean. He created the plants and animals "according to their kind" at creation, and they've adapted throughout the world using the built-in genetic variations within those kinds since then. God doesn't create new DNA with each generation. We can see and observe the DNA code degrade as mutations build up over time and genetic potential variability is lost.

Even your "artificial selection" of eliminating all long haired cats, using intelligence, doesn't result in any new information. It's a loss of genetic variability, which is what we see everywhere. We don't see increasing genetic potential, which is what evolution should result in.

Irreducible complexity isn't word salad, it's a very simple concept in various scientific fields. There's a certain amount of information or structure necessary for a certain thing to function. Think of a mousetrap for example. A mousetrap is basically irreducibly complex. It has the minimum number of parts necessary to function. If you remove one part, it's not a mousetrap anymore. It's just a collection of wood and metal parts that doesn't do anything useful. In biology, organs and systems have a level of complexity that's necessary for the part to provide a benefit to the organism.

Think of an ear. An ear is complex, with lots of different parts working together to capture sound waves, convert the sound waves to electrical signal, and send the signals to the brain. If any of those parts and systems fails, the ear no longer functions and you go deaf. It's not useful anymore, it's just a random collection of skin, bones, nerves, etc.

The reason this matters is that it eliminates the potential for the kind of gradual, imperceptible changes you claimed drive evolution. You can't evolve an ear with a huge number of tiny, imperceptible changes over eons of time. Until the ear is complex enough to function and perceive sound, it's useless to the organism and will be a liability that's selected against. That's the lower bound of irreducible complexity. Evolution has to account for a functional ear developing over a single generation, otherwise the claimed mechanism of natural selection won't "know" to save those new parts and keep improving them in the next generation. The whole idea is so silly it's hard to even steel man correctly.

The appendix is part of the immune system. Just because you can live without it doesn't mean it has no function. You can live without a finger or a toe too, and lots of people have those amputated if they get infected in a way that could be fatal. Just because scientists don't know the function or purpose of the tailbone, just like they didn't know the function of the appendix or the dozens of other "vestigial organs" for a long time, doesn't mean there is no purpose. Same goes for what was called "junk DNA" until scientists began discovering its purpose a few years ago.

I provided no evidence other than "the Bible says so?" So in other words you chose to reject the evidence I provided, and now you want to make it sound like I didn't provide any. Okay, that's your choice. I did my part.

I haven't seen that artist's conception of a so-called "firmament" in my Bible anywhere. You can find a picture somebody drew that has the word on it and depicts something imaginary that doesn't exist. That doesn't show anything about the Bible. I already told you the definition of the word. The fact that you found a picture that uses the word incorrectly isn't relevant.

MAHDOOD 1y ago

lol this is funny and a complete waste of time.

You clearly don’t understand how dna works. You can artificially select the largest kitten of every litter from that same group of cats until you end up with cats that are 3x bigger than the average size of a cat. That also means you can artificially select for other things like intelligence, sense of smell, hearing ability. That would include size of the ear. Dog ears are very different from their wolf ancestors because of domestication. If you artificially selected wolves for many generations based on the best hearing ability, you could end up with an ear that looks quite different from what an average wolf looks like. This is something that any reasonable person can accept especially when we see that amongst humans there are many variations in hearing ability and appearance. Some ears are bigger and some are shaped differently. If you artificially selected humans with larger ears and did that endlessly, they’d end up with massive ears. And it would be reasonable to think that this person is part of a completely different species.

And no you did not provide any evidence of god creating us or of his existence in another reality. Because there is none. It’s funny that this whole time you’ve argued how illogical evolution is without any correct refutations of evolution. All you’ve managed to show is that you can’t comprehend how millions of years of natural selection could lead to something different from the ancestor. Yet you believe in silly stories like a woman giving birth to someone without ever having sex or Eve being created from the rib of Adam and then populated the earth through incest. If Eve came from Adam’s rib then how do we have different blood types? Eve should have the same blood type as Adam and there is no way that you can get A, B, and O blood types from one person. My favorite story is the old bearded man that somehow managed to round up two of every animal on earth into a boat he built with his own hands for a massive global flood that destroyed everything on earth but his ship lmao. Very logical. I’m sure you’ll say something along the lines of gods miracles are beyond our ability to understand. But why should I believe in something that is logically impossible ESPECIALLY when I had not witnessed it. Don’t trust verify right?

The view of the earth from genesis is that it is a dome shaped structure. The root of the word firmament is firm and the sky is described as a firm structure. In other words, the sky is a roof which is consistent with other abrahamic faiths. The Hebrew translation of firmament is an extended solid surface. So the sky is a physical roof and the earth is described as a dome. It doesn’t help that religion keeps redefining words to avoid scientific scrutiny:

“God said, ‘Let there be a dome in the middle of the water; let it divide the water from the water.’ God made the dome and divided the water under the dome from the water above the dome; that is how it was, and God called the dome Sky. So there was evening, and there was morning, a second day.”

So sky became heaven and dome became firmament. Very easy to brainwash people when you can just keep moving the goalposts.

Religion is just a cult that hasn’t died like the other forms of mythology that came before it. And it is still profitable to tax and control the followers because people like you are afraid that a god “who loves you” will put you in an endless scary hellfire.

Don’t bother responding I’m done arguing because you have failed to provide any evidence of gods existence. I suppose that means god came into existence by coincidence.

f0xr 1y ago

You make my points for me better than I even can. I point out that ears are irreducibly complex, so there's no way natural selection can go from no ears > ears in multiple tiny steps over generations. You "refute" that with artificial selection (intelligent design) going from already functional ears > bigger functional ears. Amazing, my point precisely. How many generations of artificial selection will it take to select cats with the biggest wings every generation until you end up with cats that can fly? And I don't understand how DNA works? 🤣

But like you say, why should you believe? I'm sure you have a fully logical explanation for the origin of life, one you've witnessed personally. I'm sure you have a perfectly logical reason for not sharing your explanation. Which is perfectly fine. Like I said, you won't have to answer to me. Just giving you an alternative perspective, you're a responsible adult with freedom of choice who gets to make their own decisions.

MAHDOOD 1y ago

I had a cat with 6 fingers. It had 5 babies. One had 7 fingers and the rest had 5.

Is this the work of god? Is he still experimenting to see what is intelligent design or not?

Over a long enough time horizon, and we are talking about millions of years, a mutation can yield something slightly beneficial. As you can see in the picture attached, it’s a slow gradual process. If you can’t comprehend that a mutation can lead to something beneficial then that’s not my problem. No one said that the ear has to be extremely complex over one mutation. The ear helps with balance and motion sensing. It could be that the animal had something that was useful for balance that wasn’t even an ear which then developed a very faint ability to detect sounds. Sounds are just vibrations after all. This improved survival and then various good and bad mutations over the years changed the shape of the ear. Natural selection weeded out the bad.

You’d have to do the experiment yourself. Artificially select for cats with extra skin under their front legs then select for low weight cats and flexibility. Keep doing that and then let me know how many generations it took. Cats already have shown that they’ll use that flap of skin to slow their fall like a parachute.

I do not have an explanation for the origin of life nor did I ever claim to. And just because I don’t have the answer to the origin of life, does not mean I should accept the one you provided with 0 evidence.