Subnostr

Which of these apps/wallets would have the cheapest transaction fee to make a transfer from the closing Alby wallet guys - nostr:nprofile1qqsvn0dkjt80raqrxd470c98n7zrdehmcvj6p5hgw3kyku6zyd8z0fqpr9mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujumt0d4hhxarj9ecxjmnt9u5ex5az, nostr:nprofile1qqsvwct7ssehccgu040egxe4k8k9ru4wd605r2kfv9sf94gsu8pftcqpr9mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuumwdae8gtnnda3kjctv9uqsuamnwvaz7tmwdaejumr0dshs8we63u, sparrow, blue wallet, river, muun, and it appears I also have minibits, cashu.me and Zeus downloaded.

I am thinking probably not the first two and orienting toward non kyc, and probably something that can do LN invoice?

#asknostr

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STRIKE LOW FEES BUT YEAH KYC SO F THAT

MUUN HAS HIGH FEES

MAYBE ZEUS?

Dikaios1517 1y ago

You have a couple things to consider.

1st is the lightning transaction fee itself. You will have this with all of those options and it will vary based on how many hops there are between Alby and the destination node. It's not going to be enough of a difference to choose one option over another though. Depending on the amount you are moving, it's just going to be a few sats difference.

The other thing to consider is that you may have to pay for adding liquidity for self-custody options, like Zeus or Muun. With custodial options, they handle the liquidity for you, so you don't have to worry about that fee. That would be the Minibits or Cashu.me options, so they would likely be the cheapest options.

Thank you, for explaining. Glad to have some extra understanding.

Depends on how you intend to use the bitcoin you're transferring from Alby. Do you want keep in a lightning wallet for use with Nostr (zap)? Or do you want it in a non-custodial on-chain wallet?

If you want to use Lightning, your best bet is probably Muun, Breez, or LifPay. Those wallets are primarily lightning, but can also send and receive on-chain. Lifpay also has NWC and provides an LNURL, so it's immediately compatible with Nostr.

Muun and Breez don't provide an LNURL or have NWC, only standard lightning invoices. Zeus is good if you want to run a full lightning node, and also provides an LNURL and is NWC compatible. Finally, if you want something lightning only that provides an LNURL, and is NWC compatible, I recommend Minibits.

You should be able to transfer your funds from Alby into any of the wallets I've mentioned.

If you prefer to stay on-chain, my main recommendation is Nunchuk Wallet. As a secondary option, I suggest Blue Wallet.

That's a awesome overview. Should bookmark. I think I may actually want to stay off chain... Does my question become obsolete regarding fees then?

Well, fees are involved with all lightning wallets. Minibits are very low, like 2%. Muun and Breez are a bit higher, and their fees for sending on-chain transactions are sorta high. If you just want to stick with Lightning, go with Minibits or LifPay. Both have low fees, and excellent compatibility with Nostr. You could also go with Coinos.io, which is a web-based wallet that supports lightning and on-chain transactions. And it also provides an LNURL and is NWC compatible. It's really up to you. Try them all and see which one you like best.

Yes, absolutely. Thanks for digging deeper and sharing more of your knowledge 😃🙏🏻

I have actually been thinking I want to consolidate and move things from various places onto bitkey. Would you agree it's best to send to the wallet I'd be transferring to bitkey even if it's not lightening so it's all together? Or perhaps I'd send direct to bitkey? I actually haven't dove into bitkey yet so I am still unfamiliar as to how it works and how many wallets etc I can bring into it. But been leaning on wanting to narrow down to having sats in less places.

I think maintaining a lightning wallet and a seperate on-chain wallet makes the most sense. You keep 50k sats in your lightning wallet, for zaps and lightning payments, and the rest you keep in your on-chain wallet. That's your savings. And you can move sats from your lightning wallet to your on-chain wallet when it has accumulated a certain amount. This way, you're keeping enough sats to zap others and pay any expenses you may have, while adding to your on-chain savings on a regular basis. And if you're making monthly purchases of bitcoin, those go to your on-chain wallet.

The Daniel 🖖 1y ago

I’m still on the fence about Liquid as an option to use Lightning for payments without maintaining channels. I was not a fan earlier in the year until I started seeing some of the things being built with the nostr:npub1jugar2agq6369p0l86razavs9shj2p6pscxecevs8j94ap37hkqsjlfc28 SDK and it’s growing on me. It’s not as fast as Lightning but it’s also much easier for the average user to onboard onto one of these wallets. It’s not a perfect solution, but neither is ecash, because of the custodial risk.

For most purposes, keeping small balances under $100 USD value on any hot wallet makes the most sense.

I haven't seen a lot of places that actually accept Liquid. A few wallets support Liquid, including Coinos, and Aqua Wallet, but I can't remember the last time I ran into a merchant that accepted it. I think Lightning is more practical, and better supported. And if you're running a wallet that demands running your own node, I think the fees are reasonable.

I think the whole deal with maintaining lightning channels is an unnecessary pain in the ass. Wallets like Breez manage the channels for you in the background, and with no intervention necessary. I think a solution like that is better than running your own node, such as it is with Zeus. I'd rather just have the wallet deal with that in the background.

I suppose it does depend on how much you're transacting, but for facilitating zaps and making a few payments each month, I just don't see the value in getting involved with opening and closing, and rebalancing channels. I think Breez is much more efficient and user-friendly option. Or even a custodial option like LifPay, or a pseudo-custodial option like Minibits. The only issue with Breez is that it doesn't support NWC, or provide a lightning address. That means it's worthless for use with Nostr. You'd have to run a separate wallet like Minibits, Coinos.io, or LifPay for Nostr compatibility.

The Daniel 🖖 1y ago

You probably didn’t get what I was saying. The new generation of wallets store balances in Liquid but transact over Lightning. This way the user can receive instantly with no syncing and channel management, and merchants can receive payments via the Lightning network. (These are mainly facilitated by nostr:npub1psm37hke2pmxzdzraqe3cjmqs28dv77da74pdx8mtn5a0vegtlas9q8970.)

Are you referring to Breez?

The Daniel 🖖 1y ago

Not the main Breez mobile app but what’s currently being shipped using their SDK and Greenlight.

I’ve been testing Yopaki for a few weeks and aside from a handful of bugs and UX issues I’ve found that are being fixed, it’s really promising.

https://yopaki.com

Have you checked out Blitz Wallet?

Blitz Wallet — A self-custodial Bitcoin Lightning, Liquid, and Ecash wallet aiming to simplify payments on the Bitcoin Network.

It's built with the Breez SDK and works with Liquid.

https://blitz-wallet.com/

The Daniel 🖖 1y ago

Not yet but I will. Looks very similar to how Yopaki works. Thanks for sharing.

That Yopaki organization sounds like a bitcoin exchange with some extended functionality, including buying and selling cryptocurrency-related stocks and ETFs. Have you established an account with them? How are ylu using it? Just to buy bitcoin?

The Daniel 🖖 1y ago

No, it’s not an exchange. It’s just a wallet. There is no KYC needed to use it. I’ve been testing it along with a list of other Lightning and Lightning-enabled wallets to onboard people in New York where KYC’d custodial wallets are not available.

Hmmm... That's interesting. Based on the website, I thought it was an exchange. I'll have to sign up and see what it's all about. I love evaluating new wallets. It's one of my nerd hobbies.

The Daniel 🖖 1y ago

Honestly I never even read their website copy before. It doesn’t describe the app very well! 😄

Yeah, I guess not. No part of their website led me to believe it was a wallet.

The Daniel 🖖 1y ago

I’ll ask the founder Francisco about that next time I talk to him.

I don't even think the word "wallet" is in there. Lol

The Daniel 🖖 1y ago

It’s on the App Store. I wonder if they pivoted from an earlier business idea and forgot to update the website. 😂

Yopaki looks indirectly unpleasant for tracking

Most of that probably comes from the purchasing function. Anything that facilitates purchasing typically involves a level of KYC data that I'm always uncomfortable with. Of course, the place I buy coins from, Cash App, also involves a bunch of KYC and transaction data, so I don't know WhatsUp with my inconsistent criteria. Lol I guess since I provided all my data a long time ago, I just forget about it when I'm buying. It's just so easy and fast that I forget that all my information is being attached to every purchase. Oh well 🤷‍♂️

I get it and understand. Risky to direct newcoiners into a web of connection though. Even though you own the keys to the bitcoin wallet I imagine the app attaches lightning transactions to your app/phone ownership

Marc Kat 1y ago

There's a brewery by me that accepts bitcoin with the Aqua Wallet. They take liquid BTC.

Bruno Dias 1y ago

Precisely what Coinos.io allows you to do if you master the art of building seedphrase backups.

Thank you for the Zaps! Much appreciated! 😁

It sounds to me like lifpay is a good option... That can get transfers from minibits and also is in chain. So that's a good medium between zap transfers and onto other places. Am I correct?

Yep... Lifpay provides a LNURL (lightning address) and is NWC compatible for full interoperability with Nostr. And it can send and receive on-chain transactions. So, it would be a good intermediary for moving sats to an on-chain wallet. But you wouldn't want to use it as your on-chain wallet because all your funds would be held on the lightning network in a custodial situation. You can use it to transfer sats to and from your on-chain wallet, which would be a non-custodial option that's preferred for savings.

Gosh ok. Thank you! 😂 This is more complicated than I had realized. But I am glad I am learning. I think I am gonna pick this up tomorrow and make determinations... I was kinda not wanting to download more apps and more wallets and hoped something I already have will work. Which I guess Zeus and muun do work for my purpose to get my zaps off alby and then can go from there with wherever I want them next.

To make it simple...

Pick an on-chain wallet. Nunchuk is great, but is more complex. Blue Wallet is also great, but it's a little more user-friendly. Choose one.

Forget about Minibits. It's a great wallet, but it doesn't support on-chain transfers, which you want. Go with LifPay. It's compatible with Nostr, it provides you a lightning address, and it supports on-chain transfers.

Everything else can be put aside for another day.

One last thing. You did mention Blue wallet would work. But it doesn't seem like I have a lightening wallet capability with it to receive my Alby funds. Am I missing something?

Bruno Dias 1y ago

I recently transfered my Bitcoin from GetAlby to Coinos (also lightning) and it charged me a 1% fee.

That's a very fair fee. I really like Coinos.io, and use it send zaps, but I receive zaps and do most of my lightning payments using Minibits. I like Minibits because in addition to lightning, it's also a full ecash wallet. With Coinos, you can create ecash tokens to give to others, but you can only redeem ecash tokens created by Coinos' mint. That limits its functionality for me, so I primarily stick with Minibits. But if I have to move sats to my on-chain wallet, it goes through Coinos because Minibits doesn't support on-chain transactions. It's tough to find a wallet that does everything, so you just gotta go with what provides the functionality you use most, and use some other wallet to handle what your main wallet doesn't.

Oh interesting. That's all valuable information. I am new to ecash and have a feeling it will take me a moment to get versed in it. But starting to use minibits for my Nostr zaps is a good place to start.

Bruno Dias 1y ago

Great note SLCW, I feel that my Bitcoin is safer in cold storage as long as I stamp my seedphrase in a SAFU NINJA backup. I bought the stamping tools, stainless steel washers, bolts and nuts from local stores using fiat; having these tools organized in a small tool box, will be useful on the long-run leaving NO digital trail behind, (i.e. laser stencils, sticker vinyls, CNC files, etc.). Coinos allows me to manage (import/export) my seedphrase; transactions fees to/from seedphrase only cost USD$1 but you must have at least 4678 sats for any transaction, which for me is fairly balanced considering that if you want to use Sats for Zaps they still remain easily available on your Coinos lighting wallet - while your bulk Bitcoin is safe in cold storage. Coinos also gives you a live preview of your seedphrase balance in any currency as well as transaction history. Although not every wallet out there offers the same functionalities, seedphrase management is perhaps the most strategic feature for users wanting to save for future investments.

I've seen those self-stamped steel wallets using washers and nuts, but I don't know anything about stamping metal or assembling them. I bought a Capsule from CryptoSteel, which is basically the same concept for dummies like me who don't know about metal stamping. Lol

https://cryptosteel.com/product/cryptosteel-capsule-solo/

Bruno Dias 1y ago

Cryptosteel is good but I watched some test reviews about it's safety during vibration, impact, temperature and corrossion and C300° degree temperatures and I was not very impressed or convinced about storing my seedphrase on tiny pieces of metal.

Plus most people probably used a credit card or a digital device to purchase the Cryptosteel and I wanted to avoid leaving a digital trail behind including expensive solutions which would end up being unsustainable on the long-run; I decided to go for the hardware solutions such as stainless steel washers and manual stamping or engraving tools. Stamping is by far the faster solution; in 30 minutes you can build a seedphrase backup in the privacy of your home, no digital trail, no intermediaries and no expensive procedures.

Isn't stamping washers also storing your seed on tiny pieces of metal? The only other real alternative is one of those steel plate things. It's got a matrix of letters and numbers, and you use a center-punch to mark each of your seed letters in the space provided. They're popular, and several companies make variations of it, but I don't really like them because of the size. The capsule is ideal for my desires. It's secure, and the form-factor allows it to be stored very easily, or even hung around your neck if you want. Looking at the temperatures and conditions it's rated to withstand, I'm very comfortable storing my seed on it.

Bruno Dias 1y ago

I prefer a DYI lifetime solution in the comfort and privacy of my home, without intermediaries or digital resources. Stamping takes 30 minutes tops, it allows you to make mistakes if you have spares and have fun if you like arts and crafts.

I watched those videos you shared with me, and I'm going to try it! I'm gonna go to Home Depot and see if I can find a stamping kit and the washers, bolts and nuts needed to construct the seed bolt.

Dude: nostr:nevent1qqsgule8jgeudjl0cae3gnqlujnpnxpewrqp2fwke4k5dedlnnpgd4qpz9mhxue69uhkummnw3ezuamfdejj7q3qcj8znuztfqkvq89pl8hceph0svvvqk0qay6nydgk9uyq7fhpfsgsxpqqqqqqzae2n9q

Do you have a video that shows how to make one of the ones you have? With the stamping? I'd like to create a second steel storage device and I'd like to try making one of possible.

Bruno Dias 1y ago

Hi SLCW, I'm glad you asked me this, there are at least three methods to stamp your seedphrase at home BUT in all three you will need basic tools to build a jig.

I found three methods for building a jig: the wood, the metal or the plastic method. Check these 3 videos below, each of them allowed me to decide the best solution for myself,

https://youtu.be/WFpxVbTqhB8?feature=shared

https://youtu.be/Sy-DcRc5FAs?feature=shared

https://youtu.be/r9gIyRUek38?feature=shared

Awesome! Thank so much!

Sounds like your next step is to look into using miniscript to create time locks to protect against wrench attacks. "I'd be happy to give you my sats, Mr Robber. If you're okay with waiting until next Tuesday, they'll be available for transfer."

Very cutting edge stuff, but you could effectively at least roll it manually using something like Liana wallet at this point. Though you'll end up looking like Popeye if you stamp out a new wallet every time your time lock expires. Might be better to look into making it lock and unlock on a rolling basis within the same wallet...