Unpopular opinion:
I don’t mind owning KYC sats
Discussion
Where’s my pitchfork?!
There is no
I think it’s just way of a big thing.. we are so privileged to understand Bitcoin so well and so early that we can be busy with that. Let’s be fair: 99.99% of people will only own KYC sats
True true. I’m not blaming you in any way. If bitcoin will succeed, there will have to be KYC in some sort I think
Non KYC sats will in my opinion be valued by banks and governments as illegaly obtained money
What do you think?
Who cares what banks and governments value it at?
I’m not a “no KYC maximalist” but there are huge issues associated with the practice and the goal should be to be so successful that we change the laws.
True!
I just think there are issues in having both
I’m not a nonKYC or KYC maxi
I’m a Bitcoin maxi
This is in the same vein as 'I don't mind state surveillance, I've got nothing to hide'
You have nothing to hide 'yet'.
Shit is about to get dystopian af, and if they know your stack you better believe they're are gonna fuck with you.
You down to fuck bro?
Lost them all in a boating accident
Now come confiscate the 12 words in my brain
They'll start confiscating things that they can confiscate to the value of what they believe they are owed.
They have the value, you gave it to them.
I guess 99% of all Bitcoiners will have a big problem then
This is the practical response. The most-likely outcome is that it is impossible (due to costs) to enforce any KYC-related regulations.
NGU is incredibly important to make that cost as significant as possible.
So what’s your view?
I think KYC is “out of the bag” and by bitcoin acting as a sound money, it renders flaccid many the anti-KYC crowd’s concerns.
Would it be awesome if exchanges didn’t have KYC as a requirement, sure. But they do. And those exchanges are the best way for people in Western economies to acquire real sats and self-custody them.
Short of becoming entirely authoritarian and totalitarian in the physical world, governments won’t really have recourse. And if bitcoin moons in price then it becomes prohibitively expensive for them to administer regulations because the market will be demanding bitcoin over dollars.
Well put! Thanks for sharing 🙏🏼
So what aboit the famous „lost my keys“ argument? 🤔
Again, they'll just put you in jail or take shit that they can take.
They know and can proove you have/had corn.
They will take their cut from you.
Then it's just war anyway.
The boating accident meme originated from 2017. Some drug dealer said he kept his keys in a fishing pole he lost.
Just be careful what you wish for
These people are not sane or reasonable
History is filled with examples of a mob violating the rights of individuals
Understood. And again I’m not against it and I can definitely see the value of it
To all of you holding non KYC sats I have a question. What if some day you’re in a very bad situation in which you have to sell bitcoin for fiat in order to survive (let’s say you get sick and need to sell for your treatment). How will you do that with non KYC sats? Let’s say it’s a very big amount. You’ll most likely never be able to convert that to fiat without governments raising questions where it came from.
Good question.
Is Bitcoin fungible or isn't it?
It is to me, but it’s all subjective. Is gold fungible? Depends who you’re selling it to.
Still wondering how you would cash out non kyc sats without being marked as criminal or illegal money by the bank
Hardened Bitcoiners will tell you that there is no returning to fiat. In practice it would depend on your size, timeframe, and regulatory environment.
Most of the time the state isn’t actually interested in putting you in jail - they just want to steal your money. If you’re prepared to declare a reasonable cost basis and pay their extortion taxes I don’t think you’ll have a problem, at least in the western world.
The dream of Bitcoin is still peer to peer money. I understand that scaling and security changes this a bit, but anyone who is already here and has stacked for a while will always be able to afford to make Bitcoin transactions. Pay directly in Bitcoin when possible.
There is nothing special about KYC sats that will force people to accept them or not. A bank today still wouldn’t trade you fiat for your KYC Bitcoin. The most realistic plan would be to use a foreign exchange and trade for stablecoins, if you’re not able to use a regular KYC one.
In places with high inflation and really bad capital controls, there are local money markets where people make a living out of doing illegal currency swaps. I could see that becoming a bigger thing here if things continue in the direction they’ve gone.
My final point (long rant my bad) is that this topic gets to the heart of the entire social issue. We need people to understand why this is all important, and unfortunately 90%+ of people currently don’t care, are distracted, or are so unhealthy physically and mentally that they cannot break free. We will never get to hyperbitcoinization without the broad culture shifting, whether that be bottom up or top down. For now, the nature of most people leads them to value compliance, fitting in, and listening to authority more than freedom, thinking for yourself, and prosperity. And there’s no difference between KYC or non-KYC Bitcoin when it comes to that problem. Both entail risk.
Thanks!! Love reading your long rant!
This is exactly why I love Nostr
Just honest and real conversations
You can always KYC your sats, but it’s much harder to un-KYC them.
50% of Bitcoin was mined before 2012, before there was rampant KYC. I think the risks of revealing non-KYC Bitcoin in a crisis are lower than having your stack be known to adversaries in a crisis.
But again with that said, I have a lot of KYC sats. I don’t preach about it because I’m already public about my interest in Bitcoin (potentially unwisely) and there are a lot of challenges with stacking non-KYC with regularity.
It’s kind of like not closing the door when you shit at home - 99% of the time it doesn’t make a difference, but there are situations where you’ll be caught with your pants down.
Hahaha great comparison
No seriously I get all your points. All of you. Thank you for all these arguments. I’m glad we at least can have an open discussion about it
Buy a watch, car, or other expensive item with my stack.
Sell it for fiat.
Sometimes think the hardest core, only non-KYC maxis are inadvertently empowering the state by overstating its reach and capacity and deterring 90 percent of people who would acquire some from the simplest way to trade dollars for sats.
Yes, KYC is a scourge, and I’d rather it didn’t exist, but it DOES exist in the places most people have their fiat wealth. Don’t discourage the exit because it’s not perfect.
It is, and they might, but the point of freedom tech is they will have a hard time doing so.
Don’t give the state too much respect. It is not omnipotent.
It is increasingly omnipotent sir.
it's increasingly omniscient, but losing power every day as its fiat purchasing/printing power diminishes into the black hole of value storage, created 15 years ago.
No it’s not.
I don’t say “only own KYC”
I’m just not a nonKYC or KYC maxi
I’m a Bitcoin maxi
If I have to choose between KYC sats or fiat I’ll choose KYC sats
Non KYC is against Bitcoin principles. Government does not exist. It’s mind game.
Does jail exist?
Great question.
I get what your saying though, if everyone just stopped believing in it, then it would cease to have power, but people do believe in it, and until they don't, well, they do have power. They can get their thugs to rough you up.
Hiding and living in fear is unpopular opinion.
Presume the state knows about all your corn because it probably does. It can put a gun to your head until you tell them regardless of KYC. Jurisdictional arbitrage is the only long term solution, prepared to burn my keys otherwise.
Interesting thought
I actually dont think it matters in the end. I thought about this a great deal.
Its only if you expect them to come knocking on your door every time you move them. But by the time you need to actually use them, I'm not sure there will be a "them".
The cons are that: They know who you are, how much you have and potentially, how much and who did you send bitcoin to. Thats the raw issue. Everything stems from here.
On Twitter this would be "RATIO'D!" but on nostr it's actually a respectful and interesting discussion
100%
So glad we can have a good conversation about it
I keep KYC sars sequestered away from non-KYC sats. The plan, about 6 years ago, was to keep a stash that could still be spendable in an NPC world that would be hostile to non-KYC and mixed sats.
The KYC sats came from an exchange and are the first to go back on the exchange to be sold, so I can use money in a tightly regulated banking sector and economy.
The non-KYC sats are for helping to fuel a parallel economy, build a network of fellow psychopaths, and bug-out purposes.
Back then, I didn't even expect that I would be zapping and stacking the non-kyc sats on nostr!
I also don't mind. The problem is if that is the only option we have in the future, and they with KYC they will tax you at such level that your bitcoin investment is not worth it. KYC services are easy to use but it's a long term trap. Push for p2p, anonymous txs, dont report gains. Do not comply.
Executive Order 6102 is not the only risk.
I expect all my KYC info will be hacked one day.
Theft is not the only risk.
Your friends will Google how much bitcoin you have.
Your manager who makes 3x your salary will Google how much bitcoin you have. He might not $10 wrench attack you, but he will evaluate your performance differently when bitcoiner net worth dot com says your net worth is 10x bigger than his.
Keep in mind, most people have less than $400 in the bank. People who have heard me talk about bitcoin ten years ago look at me differenrly now. They don't know how much I have, but they know a wholecoin is already more money than they have ever seen in their bank account at one time.
This is why privacy is necessary in an open society.
People will use this information against you in other ways you can't imagine.