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I'm getting the feeling more and more that the original SAIF movement is somehow inauthentic, too artificial. Kind of just an "non-binding declaration of intent," at worst a more pretentious form of piety signaling. BTW, "non-binding declaration of intent" is also how advertising is defined, which is why legally speaking, it can spread lies about a product or service.

I'm coming to this view more and more, not just because of recent events, but I had this impression from the beginning, from the first so-called "SAIF-OGs." It's not about the abstract, very theoretical articles they write, but more:

- Lack of practical relevance

- None of the SAIF-OGs are active here on Nostr (despite a certain number of supporters in the Muslim community)

- I hardly ever see them talking about Bitcoin or OPSEC

- They're not involved in the FOSS scene and talk too little about it

... just idealistic yada yada blah blah in hard-to-digest articles all the time.

In short, it feels like every crap we modern Muslims set up these days: Fake, without substance, quickly passing. Basically like an Islamic shitcoin.

There are some real SAIF Muslims, don't get me wrong. They were SAIF before the term even existed. Like nostr:npub17veg2gt7ja4dnjhs23jyttvpqlde3ajevlxuumxwghnqmgqwuv4q78cc5z and nostr:npub1uzfp6cgwue2njm86cmyeq7m26y0n58w72acq98sjsnnv4c87002s6857h3 for example. They take the ideas behind it seriously from the beginning. I myself have written articles on my domains that could be classified as "SAIF," but never labeled them as such. But the guys behind https://saif.systems/? Yeah, nice website, so what? It seems to me like this new, artificial SAIF movement just settled into the ready-made nest and is somehow trying to take it over.

I've observed it for a long time, kept quiet for a long time, didn't want to be the critic who ruins a good thing right at the start with criticism. But now? Stay away from me with "SAIF," you hypocrites. I myself will only use the term mockingly from now on. And I'll understand it that way if someone brings it up to me. With a contemptuous smile.

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Discussion

Muslim Bitcoiner 5mo ago

I agree with a lot of what you wrote but I still support them. I see SAIF as laying the ground work for theory + praxis that can inspire future endeavors inshaAllah. It's inspired me for sure.

I do wish SAIF was more cypherpunk. Neglecting that ethos will hurt SAIF in the long run (though I'm unable to explain how)

alp 5mo ago

What is SAIF exactly? Is it an org with certain principles? Does it have a Does it have a hierarchy? Is it a new idea or philosophy? (it has to be *new*, because obviously it needs a new term for it). Even that's not clear to beginn with.

Whatever it is, I can't get anything more out of it than a "sincere declaration of intent" without any further consequences, benefits, or connection to real life, whether digital or analog, for Muslims like me.

Nile 5mo ago

You and many others like you clearly have a fundamental misunderstanding of what SAIF is. As has been explained a thousand times, SAIF was born out of the question "how can we survive and capture the process?" Inevitably, the question of "what is the process?" "What is capture" "what does survival and victory look like?" "Is it possible? Feasible" etc arise hence the "dense" articles as you put it. The founding of SAIF had a mixture of elements who have different but adjacent ideas to answer those questions. Viral capture vs OPSEC. Both are working together under the umbrella of SAIF towards a common goal even if methods differ. The majority of core members contribute by way of man hours, ideas or whatever else they can contribute. If you want to offer up a cypherpunk solution, be my guest - we'd be more than happy to take a look but what we're not going to accept is you sitting there whining and throwing your toys out of the crib because SAIF isn't this or that. Instead of telling us what we should be or what we should do - come with a working solution that isn't "lock yourself to an obscure platform so that your work reaches no one" and then maybe you'll be taken seriously

alp 5mo ago

Ah cool, knock on the bush once and the character already shows up a bit more. So you're facing a web developer here who knew what social media was before Facebook and Twitter existed, and is well-acquainted with related concepts like virality. I've been active on the internet for about 30 years. And if you've explained something 1000 times already and it still doesn't make sense to me what SAIF exactly is, even with the help of AI, then that's not my problem but the sender's. As they say, an expert can explain things so everyone understands.

What "victory" are you even talking about? What "survival"? By the way, I never mentioned cypherpunk.

Given my age and experience on the web, I absolutely cannot accept your infantilization of my criticism. I'm not even saying what "SAIF" is, I'm still positively assuming it has some use and I'm just randomly guessing why it doesn't practically contribute to the topics that it might be related to.

Don't get the idea that you're the first Muslims on the web trying to be somewhat useful to others. There are much bigger calibers before you. I don't care if you take me seriously. Who takes your group seriously? Who is "SAIF" anyway? What do you stand for?

As long as you can't define what SAIF is clearly in simple 2-3 sentences, SAIF simply means nothing at all.

Nile 5mo ago

-Credentials, of no importance. Your identity is of no interest to me.

-You not understanding it means little. There are many people who understand it just fine. You might not be well versed in theory and philosophy which is fine

-If you wonder “what survival” it makes me wonder why in the first place you write an article about a project you have either not read a lot about or you have understood so little that somehow such questions make sense to you

-Another nod to credentials. Just as unimportant as me saying Eco is an academic so his philosophy is good. We prove this through the writing, not through pointing at credentials

-Saying “I’m not saying what SAIF is” is false as you implied knowing what it is by saying X is SAIF y is not SAIF, “my articles can be deemed SAIF” etc. How can you say those things while not understanding it (which you admit in this same post).

-No one said we are the first people to do anything and we are open about our influences

-Your age is of no interest

-You don’t seem to understand what it is related to (seeing the examples you gave in first post)

-If you want to know what we stand for read the articles. If you don’t understand ask.

-It was defined in my answer. Any further answer of how and what exactly requires more than 2-3 sentences. If you think that makes it mean nothing you have not engaged with any deep philosophy or theory ever.

Nile 5mo ago

If you want to formulate an actual critique you are more than welcome to do so. You frame your entire thing as "im just asking questions" but you hasn't asked any actual intelligent questions outside of general bait "explain it in 2 sentences or it means nothing".

alp 5mo ago

Ok, assalamu alaykum.

Nile 5mo ago

Walaikum asalam