Am I crazy for thinking that terrorists deserve due process if possible
Discussion
No. Everyone deserves to be heard🤷🏽 motives and what not.
Probably won't change a verdict but everyone deserves a trial🤷🏽
Exactlyyyy like I get that it’s not always possible but I think the inclination to seek out vengeance doesn’t overrule due process. Like due process shouldn’t just be around when you’re feeling nice.
Facts
Listen to yourselves... What due process did their victims get before being tortured, decapitated and executed? All they deserve is a summary execution. So yeah it's unreasonable to give them anything besides a painful death.
I dont believe in the death penalty period. Retributive justice is inhumane. We shouldnt become murderers in our pursuit of justice for another murderer. Two wrongs doesnt make a right.
An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind guy🤷🏽
You don't think we got useful information about human psychology and how to attempt prevent human horrors from interviewing Nazis?
Killing them for vengeance or whatever motive you may have makes you no better than them. Can't help but think I personally am a bit better than those animals by sheer virtue of not wanting to outright murder them back.
I mean I believe in the death penalty🤷🏽
But even with the most sick of serial killers, the whole time they're on trial and sitting on death row they've getting evaluated by people who are trained to learn how and why they think the way that they do. And that's valuable as a species, the ability to reason and figure out what makes someone sick too prevent it in the future or catch it early enough to prevent before they start hitting others🤷🏽
I think that can apply to foreign aggressors just the same as our fellow countrymen🤷🏽
Okay, so like, my feelings on the death penalty are that yes these people should be removed from the gene pool and they should in no way be a drain on society. So if we could figure out a way to get rid of them without killing them or having to pay for them to live in prisons, I'd be in.
I live in the (per capita) incarceration capital of the world. I have witnessed the school to prison pipeline from many angles. Prison is not the answer. There is essentially a turnstyle on the jail door here.
Too bad that whole "Australia is a prison state" solution didn't really pan out either. ☠️🫠
I agree the prison system is fucked🤷🏽
I don't really have an answer for that.
This is super controversial in my own mind, but since you mentioned it I'll just be a bigot for a second. I actually think the Australian prison country system could work, but for diseases we want to go extinct. Yes I realize I'm basically calling for the ostracization and rounding up of people with things like HIV or whatever... Buuuuuuut in my head does it have to be prison? As much as I hate taxes, I would voluntarily donate money to the disease "resort" island for the doomed to die eventually 🤷🏽
Like it's not like you couldn't let your lives ones come visit you or whatever🤷🏽 all your amenities paid so you don't have to think about working ever or anything like that🤷🏽
I dunno it's stupid. I get it. But it sounds interesting🤷🏽
Aren’t you an anarchist so why are you for state violence to this extent?
It is an interesting scenario we could talk about from an ethical framework perspective as a thought experiment. But only in that setting 🤣😂😂
Which part. The death penalty?
Or my crazy idea of what if to eradicate crazy disease?
Because the former can be carried out within society both adhering to state role and not.
The latter is a crazy what if I had in high school when attempting to reason out how to rid humans of disease. 🤷🏽
Not saying it's an actual solution.
No the second one. But I don’t disagree with it on a hypothetical scenario where we heavily incentive the voluntary curtailing of one’s personal freedoms for the benefit of society.
The incentive is where my mind goes yes.
I'm not a fan of forcing people onto this island. If rather make it like all expenses paid vacay for life.
I also understand even with that people wouldn't want to go and do the whole plan falls apart🤷🏽
Then the US government for sure would night of broken glass everyone and send em I'm sure🤷🏽
I don't know how to fix it. I don't think it really is fixable. Shit needs to die out naturally I guess like bubonic plage and small pox. But it's a interesting thought. Right?
Like if the incentives were so good there was a small percentage of people like "damn give me HIV right now! Please! I want to go to the island!"
But that's just my absurdist brain making fun too 🤷🏽
Scandinavian countries have no death penalty, a maximum 21 year prison sentence, and low rates of recidivism. Could scarcity play a larger role in crime than mental illness? The wealth gap doesn’t bode well for social safety and individual behavior. There is a direct statistical correlation.
Can you explain what you mean by scarcity in that context? I'm not sure I get the meaning.
But I think a higher issue with the American prison system is psychological guidance. Often prisoners just sit, left to think about what they've done and what could be, and the people they're sitting with are in the same situation. So often people that go into the system come out with stories and skills about how to do their crimes better🤷🏽
There are programs to keep them busy, there's psychologists, there's art, there's schooling. But in the end they're all really looked at as a number. A statistic. They're not really listened to, or given real options and skills away from that life.
They say we should rehabilitate prisoners with therapy, I say ok let's do that, on an official basis, get to know the person and how they learn and how they work and show them skills that they can really get behind. Discover their passions and show them that they are capable🤷🏽
I agree with a lot of what you said here. I think our prisons in America have a destructive culture, but our society also shuns convicts preventing them in some cases from participating in a meaningful way after the time is served. Scarcity is the unequal distribution of baseline resources and is highly variable depending on the cost of living. It is, simply put an animal that doesn’t have enough to eat, or provide sustainable resources to its offspring. At the core human are animals, and no starving animal acts according to established behavioral patterns, or even in predictable ways. As an added liability, humans can experience scarcity as a perception as well which complicates the methods used to combat the effects. It’s a complex issue, I would encourage you to research prisons in Norway and how the prisoners live while serving time. It’s no wonder the system works better than the one in the US.
Actually that's a great point I hadn't thought of too that you mentioned. The publics treatment of excriminals who are literally deemed fit to come back into society, or that they served their time. Still to be treated like they're currently in prison. That's fuuuuccccked. And definitely wouldn't make me feel like I could even act right. Might as well go back to doing the rest shit🤷🏽
I have read some about prisons in Europe. Maybe Norway, where they don't even have fences. And they're allowed to go fishing and work even.
I will read more! Thank you for the suggestion!
Everyone needs to know about Prep. We need to advocate for it to stop the spread and make sure it’s easily accessed 👏
Prep?
Yeah honestly the only two way to eradicate would be exactly that. Learn how it spreads/works (scientists) then inform everyone how to safely deal.
It’s a drug you take that reduces the risk of HIV by 99%
Oh gotcha
Interesting!
Yeah I was just using HIV as the worst disease I could think of. The thought experiment applies to like whatever disease people deem ridiculously dangerous and better to be extinct.
None of the common colds or things like that.
In that case I would def be in agreement with that as a practical solution
Well if I may ask you to keep thinking about it then! Because I think there's a lot of homes in my idea🤷🏽
It would be cool if someone smarter than me took my idea and made it bulletproof. Like actually pheasible.
Apologies if HIV in particular was a tipping point or anything.
No no I take no offense or anything of the sort I just know that some Christian fascists in America want to stop access to prep so I want to get it out there as much as possible so people know how important it is to have access.
It was my random excuse to inject a PSA 😂
Well I find that commendable and all you to continue because I had no idea what it was even called. I knew there WERE meds but I don't know anything about em.
Well other than Magic Johnson is on a real damn good one.
Oh shit you’re right I didn’t realize he was on those kinds of drugs.
Years he's been on something.
And he looks great.
I remember being a kid and thinking he wasn't going to be around much longer. Decades ago.
It’s before my time but I will say he looks like a beast in his prime
Damn now I feel old.
Well. I guess I am old. whatever.
Le sigh I'll go back to remembering the good ole days of when Nickelodeon was good
I remember watching Nickelodeon growing up… specifically the cartoon ninja turtles from the early 2010s. Loved it. I watched it through an elaborate system of stealthily using technology in the dead of night because I was in an insular cult-like environment with little exposure to the outside world. Go figure.😄
🤣
I was born on in 90 and was raised by the Simpsons🤷🏽
Oh yeah thats fire
Maybe it explains some of my absurdity🤷🏽
Both the some you agree with and the some we disagree on🤷🏽
Scrolling up to how this conversation started and now ended. 😂
#KeepNostrWeird 🔥
Maybe this will make it to the Nostr news! 🤣🤣
I didn’t get your notification right away. I use Damus and sometimes it doesn’t always deliver I’m not sure why.
No, because there's a reason for it. I'd wanna hear the logic behind it rather than just them dying and being labeled a bad person
Yeah and there would be time for the grieving families to give some kind of victim impact statement too which would be helpful I’m sure
You must live in clown world, have no moral compass and missing key components of an education. Your views below are complete nonsense. You obviously don't get the concept of FAFO. Swift retribution is the only moral answer. That's what real men and real patriots do. They eliminate evil from the earth when faced with it. Ditch your touchy feely sensibilities and grow a pair. We can't fix this kind of stupid. If you're lucky one day you'll see the world for what it really is. Yup it's pretty caveman mentality.
LOL that's how you create Evil in this world. Evil that grows exponentially under favourable circumstances.
You don't have perfect information, and neither does the audience watching your actions.
Consequently, you will cock it up and harm an innocent sooner or later. Or the audience will cock it up and wrongly assume that you did.
Both of these lead to uncontrolled escalation under unfavourable circumstances, and "mowing the grass" under favourable circumstances.
Due process is a set of tools for mitigating these problems. Its implementation is necessarily human and imperfect, but all societies that have tried to do without it have self-destructed, either directly or by making too many enemies.
I love when people like yourself can properly articulate the reasons for these valuable systems. So many people simply believe that they're good, without understanding the exact "why."
Reactions like this make me wonder if you've read books like Lord of the Flies.
Of course I have... That and hundreds of other books related to the human condition. At some point our society pivoted to moral relativism. I'm of the school that moral absolutes remain. Wanton disregard for human life is punishable by removing the offender(s) from the gene pool decisively and permanently. It's like Sodom and Gomorrah all over again. Evil exists. It must be judged and terminated. You don't have to buy that line of thinking. Suffice it to say no one wants me on the jury at trial if they are a mass murderer; nor have me as a soldier of the state being designated a target in my crosshairs.
Change my mind.
I dont believe our society has "fallen into moral relativism" by any means. Property crime, murder, pedophilia, adultery, lying, etc- are all still seen by society as a negative thing. My problem is that there is a lack of education of secular ethical systems in the education system. I would rather people know the "why" behind their moral and ethical positions.
I dont believe capital punishment sends a good message to society at large. I dont think our criminal justice system should be based in retribution or justice. I think rehabilitation is possible for many forms of criminality, including murderers. Sometimes its not possible, and in that case we should let them reflect on their wrongdoing until they die. If they want to voluntarily opt for euthanasia, I would be fine with that. But only if they had a living environment that is considered humane.
You're just someone whose loved ones haven't suffered and died at the hands of terrorists.
Terrorists may or may not deserve due process.
The real reason they get due process is because you and I deserve due process.
If any government is allowed to kill people outside combat, government officials will use it to kill people they find inconvenient. Maybe theyll bother to plant a weapon a bleeding heart with a camera is around. Maybe they will just brazen it out.
William Roper: “So, now you give the Devil the benefit of law!”
Sir Thomas More: “Yes! What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?”
William Roper: “Yes, I'd cut down every law in England to do that!”
Sir Thomas More: “Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned 'round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country is planted thick with laws, from coast to coast, Man's laws, not God's! And if you cut them down, and you're just the man to do it, do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons: A Play in Two Acts