Discussion
there's absolutely no reason to think government shitcoining results in a Bitcoin standard.
The whole premise depends on them valuing Bitcoin MORE than the ability to print money
which is absurd
The most powerful government in the world legitimizing and promoting Bitcoin, and actively pushing forward policy which encourages its use, does bring us closer to a Bitcoin standard.
It brings us closer to "regulatory clarity" and capture of the network.
Bitcoin doesnt need any government to legitimize it. Their involvement will never result in a positive outcome.
unless someone's "positive outcome" means fiat gains of course.
If you don't think Bitcoin can survive a friendly government I'm not sure what you've been doing here. If you think Bitcoin can be captured by Trump making a shitcoin reserve you might as well sell it all right now.
the point is that its NOT a "friendly government."
and what I'm doing here is pointing out that fact to people who dont know any better.
I'm very confused what you think is going to happen here or how this deviates from anything we've been expecting this whole time.
oh it's completely expected.
including all you maxis rooting for government involvement as if it was a positive thing.
as if at some point,
they're going to care SO MUCH about the Bitcoin they hold
they'll willfully surrender the ability to actually print money.
something something Trojan Horse something š
It's not about them caring, it's about the people caring. They "lead" the people. No denying that.
If a Bank can legitimately hold Bitcoin and offer those services to customers, do you seriously not see how that is a huge win?
the difference between you and I is
you think captured Bitcoin is a win.
it is the same bullshit.
I think a Bitcoin standard is a win. This is an economic fight.
My Bitcoin will not be captured but there are people who will use captured Bitcoin. Look at how many people use Coinbase and Binance. Now imagine the biggest banks in the worlf offer those services to customers. Now imagine Visa settles Bitcoin denominated payments.
The network will not be captured. It is the individuals which can be. But that is always their choice, and even captured individuals denominating wealth against Bitcoin is a massive win. In fact, it will promote more freedom over time. Watch it happen.
Also, if you want a bitcoin standard you need the government on boardā¦ā¦there are millions of people who do not have the wherewithal to think on their own. Unfortunately, they need to be told what is legitimate and what is worth something and they look towards their government, experts, and financial planners. I donāt know about you, but in all these years Iāve only been able to convince 6 people to hold bitcoin and one of them I sleep with and the others have been a result of me sleeping with the first. Mu hope is that once they do buy it, they eventually self custody, and then make some gains which maybe leads them to learn more and to further expand their understanding of what they hold.
Upon further reflection, Iād ad if you want it accelerated then you need them. Eventually, we will get there, but itād be nice to have it before I die š.
Bingo. The Bitcoin standard is not 8 billion self-custody lighting nodes and cashu mints. I wish it was, but it's not, and that's not our fault.
Take banks being able to hold Bitcoin as an example. Most people would love a Bitcoin savings account at their traditional bank. Is it captured Bitcoin? Yes. Is it a Bitcoin standard? Still yes.
If you think Bitcoin fails because of fractional reserve or scaling limits or mining regulations or bitcoin loans etc. etc. You haven't thought it all the way through. Dishonest people fail. Honest people win. That's the game Bitcoin presents and that's why it continues to win.
They can FAFO if they want, but allowing it into the financial system like this is a huge positive development.
It blows my mind that the president of the US is even talking about any of this. Senators too. I donāt know how people canāt see that all of this means we are winning. Trumps trump. I think a lot of people werenāt around in the 80s and 90s.
Why don't you vote for better money?
Doesn't work like that. Better money needs to be organic. Cannot be created by a politician. I can vote for politicians who will be more friendly to my better money though.
And yet you are describing two contradictory systems. One which relies on the permission of the state and the other which does not. Voting does nothing to secure bitcoin.
Wow it doesn't? I thought that was part of the white paper.
I'm not sure what is complicated about this. I use better money - Bitcoin. It exists like a force of nature. It doesn't need my vote. But I do also vote for politicians who will promote my better money.
What happens when KYC is mandated on all transactions and a unrealized gains tax is levied relative to yearly returns?
Guillotines? Idk. You don't have any more of a plan then I do. At least I'm trying to support people who won't do that.
My point is white market bitcoin is no different than voting for better dollars. You have to be willing to use bitcoin without permission (black market) in order to gain it's main value prop (tax avoidance)
The better the tools become, and the more people who transact + mine, the less the risk of punishment becomes.
I disagree with you here. Governments donāt need to legitimize Bitcoin. Bitcoin is legit because it works and they canāt stop it. Governments are not the ones that legitimized a gold or silver standard. Reality is what does these things. Government adapts to the world and tries to find the best way to take advantage of them. This is what history shows us.
Iām not saying itās not legitimate. Iām saying that millions of people canāt do their own research, think for themselves, and need to be told what is ālegitimateā. The market will eventually will educate them, but If we want the adoption of btc to accelerate then these people are reliant on the information provided to them by the āexpertsā.
Those people will now buy trump coin, wrapped Bitcoin, and eth because of the government.
Maybe, but I think the same people who wouldāve bought them before will. I donāt care about them. Small fry.
I donāt care about them either but you mentioned above that the millions of people who canāt think for themselves need a government or group of āexpertsā to tell them to buy Bitcoin. But this same group is now telling them to buy shitcoins. So this is causing more harm to people and many will associate that harm with all of cryptocurrencies including bitcoin.
The same group? Itās the president, Donald Trump and his family. Sure, many gamblers will get wrecked, but I donāt see financial advisors, pension fund boards, the boards of large wealth funds, money managers advising their clients to buy trumps fucking meme coin. He will milk dumb people, like rich people have always done. It sucks, itās immoral, and is absolutely unethical, but that has no effect on the mission and what has been accomplished. Heās one man. I care more about the others who will be integrating btc into every nook and cranny and making it such an integral part of the worldās financial underpinnings everyone in the world will have exposure to it, without even knowing.
Iāll be very surprised if endowments, SWF, pension funds, and legitimate nation states buy meme coins.
I donāt think Bitcoin can be captured but it depends what you mean by captured.
But I do have to say that āfriendly governmentā is an oxymoron. Government is evil by nature and cannot be friendly.
Is El Salvador Bitcoin friendly in your opinion? Genuine question.
People can be corrupted, people can be led astray, people can get rug pulled. Bitcoin itself cannot be. The old world will either get on the train or get run over. I'm not sure why people have been so hysterical recently.
Not really. The government took out an IMF loan recently and announced they are providing free electricity and water to 95% of the citizens. Where is that money coming from? They also are scaling back bitcoin stuff. Businesses are no longer required to accept bitcoin payments. Not sure which direction they are going but enslaving the citizens with an IMF loan is bad news. Idc if theyāre stacking bitcoin. That Bitcoin does not belong to the people.
Their people are not inslaved and requiring Bitcoin to be accepted by businesses is big government. All I'm saying is that there is such thing as better and worse government.
So you view it as the lesser of two evils.
My view is that it is still evil. Would you rather live under Stalin or Mao? Theyāre both bad choices. I believe that the point of Bitcoin is to separate money from state. I think thatās what satoshi wanted to accomplish. I donāt think integrating it into the government is what he wanted. I also donāt think that it is clearly good for Bitcoin because backing the dollar with Bitcoin extends the life of fiat. Unless you only care about NGU which is also valid. Thatās my opinion though, we donāt know what the future holds.
Would you rather live under Stalin or Washington? Much less of a straw man. Think on it.
I agree that the government is evil because it uses force to exploit people. But there isn't a reason it has to be that way. If Bitcoin is here to fix money and fix that relationship, it will be adopted by governments.
Bitcoin separated money and state in 2009, but only for people who use it. Supportive policies lead to more people using it. Very simple.
I would rather live under neither but obviously Washington didnāt have millions die under his rule. But if youāre implying that trump is anywhere close to what Washington was then we are probably never going to align on our views lol
So 100 years from now, you think the dollar will still exist and will be used at a large scale?
Go back and read this whole thread. I'm not sure where you're getting my views from but nowhere did I say "Trump = George Washington" or "The dollar is here to stay".
Here are my points.
- evil is not black and white
- there is such thing as better and worse governments
- I would rather my government support and encourage use of my money rather than antagonize me and criminalize it
- Trump positioning the US "pro-crypto" brings us closer to a Bitcoin standard
I ideological align with you on a lot of stuff but I've been noticing recently just how out to lunch some libertarian takes have been. No serious person thinks we are all just going to wake up tomorrow in a beautiful free and capitalist world with no government and no taxes and no corrupt politicians. Progress towards that goal starts with understanding where we're currently at and working off of that. A few tiny steps in the right direction is a good thing.
We wonāt just wake up in a world like that but we can take small actions to get there, youāre right about that. I just donāt think a Bitcoin reserve prolonging the life of the dollar is contributing to that end goal. It doesnāt really matter though because governments are going to do what they do.
Bitcoin will yet humble Trump.
My dude is right