This is no person until much, much later. And if the woman is contemplating an abortion much later in the process, I can guarantee you she wanted to have the child and is only doing it against her will (health purposes). Later stage abortion is a huge punishment on itself to any woman. There is no need to create laws to double down in the punishment side.
Discussion
If we can't agree on when life begins this debate will never be settled. No point arguing. I believe this is the root.
Correct. And we will never agree. So, let the woman just choose it whatever works better for her. The later the abortion, the worse for her anyway.
Another solution is to have some places that allow, some places that don't, and allow people to freely self select the jurisdiction that aligns with their values, that way people don't have to compromise
except it is not so simple to change where you live.
Definitely not simple, and this is not a simple problem we've been grappling with for so long, I don't know the answers
Just thankful for nostr that we can attempt to have a free and open discussion about it, hopefully from the starting place that we are on the same team and not horrible people for having different opinions
wholeheartedly agree.
lmao
If we can't decide on when life begins, let her kill her child after birth, as well, if it is better for her? Why not as a toddler, if it is a burden? It's not a fully-formed human, the same argument applies.
Why not default to protecting life as a default instead of murder?
Why not spend resources to help the mother with pregnancy and taking care of the child or adoption?
If there are alternatives to killing innocent life, why not pursue them instead?
Why not default to protecting life instead of murder? Why not spend resources to help the mother with pregnancy and taking care of the child or adoption?
You can. You just can't force the mother to carry on something on HER BODY that she doesn't want to. But feel free to develop mechanisms that the fetus can develop outside the mother.
Happy with killing a child?
Happy with your wife killing your son against your will?
Happy with ripping a baby up in the womb?
You are missing that there are two humans involved.
Ah the forced birth conundrum.
Yep this is the root for sure, will never settle.
Life begins at conception.
If life is defined with metabolism, sure. Many organisms have metabolism, across the kingdoms. So then is it consciousness? Lots of organisms are conscious. What sets apart human life? Meaning? Potential? Experience?
Do I really have to explain how humans are intrinsically different from all other animals?
Dude yes please do cause we aren't. You're a fuckin animal dude
Humans are not animals because we have imagination, logic, science, written language etc.
Arguing about what a “human” is, debating the proper course of action, having power over the natural world- these are what makes us Human.
It is what the Bible is referring to when it teaches us that we are created in the image of God, to be Stewards of the Earth.
I prefer to say we are rational animals capable of logic, long term goal orientation, and advanced creativity. Still animals technically, but very much in our own league of animals. This nomenclature is much more consistent.
Still doesn’t explain why we have the right to property on earth and animals don’t.
We should give all the livestock lightning wallets
Actually it does. Legitimate property is the stuff that we have the information necessary to control without hurting others. Animals are not able to manage much but their own bodies and nests and stuff. Humans can manage far more. We have the ability to reason at a much more advanced level. We need these things to survive, and we have the ability to use them and to do so without hurting others for it. We have dominion over other life forms generally speaking, because we are, well, just able to. We're designed that way. We are tapped into logic, the logos of this universe, and are therefore endowed with the ability to be stewards of it.
Sure even that is fair enough. We're all flesh but we aren't mere beasts. Man is destined for greater, that's cool. But then what part is the part that isn't ok to snuff out? Cause if flesh-life starts at conception, and continues to death, that's the case for all of the creatures. I can kill and eat a beast. Should not torture the beast or cause undue suffering... Is aborting a calf as heinous as aborting a human?
Completely agree.