Nostr Web Client

I tried to open an inbound channel like you said but it said I had no sats to pay for it. So I sent 11k sats to the wallet and it ate 10k. Then I sent 98k sats over, and it ate 10k sats. The other custodial wallet didn’t charge a single sat in fees.

ZEUS 6mo ago 💬 1

So you had a second channel opened to you, because your first one didn't have enough capacity to receive the new amount you sent. By default, the just-in-time services gives you 100k sats of inbound on top of the amount you're looking to receive.

Whenever a new channel needs to be opened, the required fee is displayed clearly above the invoice QR.

If you want to be most economical, you can use the advanced channel service through the 'Purchase inbound channel' and specify the amount and duration you need so you can do long term planning.

As far as costs VS custodial. Yes, custodial wallet charges less in fees, but that's at the cost of control of your funds.

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Discussion

MAHDOOD 6mo ago 💬 2

Duration of channel? What does that mean? Is this channel going to expire at some point? Yeah I see two channels and that’s not what I wanted. This is way too confusing

ZEUS 6mo ago 💬 1

Yes, channels expire after some time, but you can renew them in the app.

As for the two channels, you don’t have to worry about them too much, you can use both of them together.

MAHDOOD 6mo ago 💬 1

Renew for another 20k sats?

ZEUS 6mo ago

No, the cost is much lower as you have already paid for your on-chain fees and premium for using the just-in-term service.

bitcoinranger 6mo ago 💬 1

I have a small advice for you in the future. If you’re not sure what you’re doing it’s always better to read the docs so you avoid mistakes especially if you deal with Bitcoin nostr:nevent1qqsy4svf3r4mvv57yutsahkst2yjxhutqsnn6pc4xwhws0pqtlffnlczyq73jv5nqt57u230dzm3hf4zl7wxg4ftajd7jge9d0sh2st6wllksqcyqqqqqqgmxu6zk

MAHDOOD 6mo ago 💬 2

Dude I’m not a developer. I shouldn’t have to read all these docs lmao good UX should take care of this. I understand bitcoin and I have a basic understanding of lightning. I know you need channels and inbound/outbound liquidity. But there’s just way too much information here. And I understand why it’s designed that way. Transparency is important but most of this info is overwhelming for the average user and a normie will never sit through reading all these docs.

bitcoinranger 6mo ago 💬 1

The docs aren’t for developers! You haven’t even checked what I shared with you before you wrote this note 🤷‍♂️

MAHDOOD 6mo ago 💬 2

Docs are not for ordinary users. They are for devs or the die hard dedicated user. If you need me to look through docs, then the UX isn’t good enough. This is a book I read when I was working in digital marketing and it’s helpful for developers trying to improve UX. It should be straight forward and intuitive. I understand that Zeus is trying to give users all of the options and control but this isn’t ideal for 99% of users. That’s why custodial wallets dominate. It’s not just that it’s cheaper, but it’s braindead easy. Maybe add another option to create a wallet using an extremely simplified UX? I highly recommend this book to anyone that wants to improve UX of their app.

ZEUS 6mo ago 💬 1

ZEUS v0.11 has a new Cashu wallet. You can get a Lightning address for free and have your a-ha moment on Nostr, with the ability to accept 1 sat zaps.

Then, as you wallet balance grows, ZEUS will provide educational material and prompt you to upgrade to a channel when economic self-custody becomes viable.

MAHDOOD 6mo ago 💬 1

I didn’t see cashu anywhere on Zeus wallet

ZEUS 6mo ago

It’s in the v0.11 beta and release candidate.

It hits the app stores tomorrow.

Menu > Settings > Ecash

bitcoinranger 6mo ago 💬 2

Sir, my 10 years old nephew just set up Zeus wallet after reading the docs without having any issues and sending my invoices on daily basis now

MAHDOOD 6mo ago

Congrats to him. We should just throw away standard UX practices and blame it on lazy users. I’m sure that’s how large tech companies like Google, Facebook, YouTube, and Amazon became as massive as they are. Let them eat docs.

smalltownrifle 6mo ago 💬 3

This is one of those times when we have something great in our hands and we don't know what to do with it so we just start hating it 😂

We could say that its about the target userbase being considered by the wallet devs more than standard UX practices. We have so many options now, thanks to the network's open nature, that we don't need to be up in arms about this very much.

For the demographic of Bitcoiners who care about control, customisation and self-custody while using Lightning, Zeus is doing an incredible job. I love their UX. Blixt is a other option.

For people who sort of understand lightning and are okay with giving up a certain degree of customisation but still want self-custody, there's Phoenix.

Aqua is for people who want to minimise fees and maybe go between on-chain and LN very often.

Wallet of Satoshi for people who want to use a wallet without thinking about anything under the hood.

Blink gives a way to get access to Dollars while still using Lightning.

Strike is a great interface with fiat.

Cashu wallets for people who are okay with third parties as long as strong privacy guarantees exist.

Alby for people who want the proper LN experience with full control over literally everything from their desktop.

All of these services will likely exist side-by-side, make money (hopefully enough to become incredibly sustainable) and help people use Bitcoin in the way they see fit.

I don't think we will see a standard UX per se. It's going to be quite diverse.

MAHDOOD 6mo ago 💬 1

Not a standard UX but you can still have great UX while retaining all of the advanced features. One way to do it is to start the onboarding with simple questions whose answers

will set up the wallet settings for you.

smalltownrifle 6mo ago

That's a great way to get new users started

Tauri 6mo ago

That’s a good point

aco 6mo ago 💬 1

nostr:nprofile1qqsytuv4el7t3jtjfm7zfrc9q730ked40806he7dx5uctxqk8j4hvfcpp4mhxue69uhkummn9ekx7mqpz4mhxue69uhks6tnwshxummnw3ezumrpdejqh358gt you come to me. I’ll help explain it easily.

MAHDOOD 6mo ago 💬 1

I appreciate you. The point I’m trying to make is that if we realistically want the world on a bitcoin standard, the UX should be brain dead easy. I shouldn’t have to look through docs or speak with the actual team about the fact that the app needs to be open to send/receive payments or open a channel.

aco 6mo ago 💬 2

Agreed 100%. But also, you ever signed for a loan from a bank? Or opened a credit card? Lots of docs. It’ll become more user friendly with time, WE are still early.

ZEUS 6mo ago 💬 1

You guys are both right.

Self-custodial Bitcoin UX has to get better, but it is progressing each and every day.

But at the same time, to use it to its full potential today you have to do some learning about the nuances. Thankfully there are tons of great resources if you’re willing to put the time in.

Self-custodial VS custodial is all about time preference. Have some pain getting started as you’re getting familiar with the concepts VS have much more pain when you can no longer access your funds.

aco 6mo ago

🙏 did you guys change something so the channels and duration or is that an app thing? My node channels have been open for years. The app only lets me “rent”channels.

MAHDOOD 6mo ago 💬 1

But I’m not signing a loan from the bank. I’m just trying to hold a small amount of sats for shitposts on nostr.

aco 6mo ago 💬 3

Right. But you are your own bank. If you want someone else to make it easier for you then custodial is the faster onboarding. But then you need to trust who you’re using. True privacy and self-sovereignty is a balance of convenience. Everyone has different tolerances.

MAHDOOD 6mo ago 💬 2

Most people are inevitably going to be on custodial solutions anyway. I’m just asking for a simpler onboarding experience. I have Phoenix wallet and that feels much easier to use.

ZEUS 6mo ago 💬 1

Hear you loud and clear. We’re working on it.

Appreciate all the feedback.

MAHDOOD 6mo ago 💬 1

I appreciate you not taking this an attack. I do love what Zeus stands for. I’ve had the app downloaded for like 3 years now. Listened to you guys more than once on the citadel dispatch. Every time I do, I reopen the app to try and use it but every time I open the app and try to set up the wallet, I’m just like wtf is all this info it’s overwhelming. Where do I even start? So I close the app and say I’ll come back to it later because it’s early and the UX should improve. But coming back to it years later still feels the same. Today I finally bit the bullet and just did what you said. It doesn’t feel great to pay all those fees without knowing that the channels will eventually expire. I don’t envy the UX work that you guys need to do but it feels like you just have to burn sats to learn or you have to have prior experience running a lightning node. I like the idea of making the current UX a more advanced option and adding a beginner friendly option that handholds you through the process. I highly recommend that book. I think improving UX can massively grow your user base.

ZEUS 6mo ago

Cheers. Thank you.

aco 6mo ago 💬 1

Tradeoffs. I prefer lightning over liquid. I’m dipping my toes in ecash, there’s a learning curve for sure. I think of L1 as my savings, L2 as my checking. Self hosted holds most of L2 and custodial gets a “per diem” spend that is okay if rugged.

MAHDOOD 6mo ago

Right now I prefer liquid. The custodial risk is small but trading with it is super cheap and intuitive. No need to manage channels or pay unexpected fees. When your liquid balance is large enough you can pay the fee to send it on chain.

namosca 6mo ago

Breez is similar to Phoenix, but better: phoenix devs knows who you are paying (because of their routing mechanism), Breez devs don't