Honestly, I'm still struggling with Bitcoin soft fork proposals. I believe we will end up with full introspection: there are too many things people want to build which require it.

But most current proposals are workarounds for current limitations, which will become vestigial when/if we actually fix things. They may be simply unused, or worse, not quite useful. And it's hard to know: if we had restored script and introspection, we could see what people build and then go "ah, this opcode would make this more efficient!", but without that we are guessing.

So I really have to figure out if mevil is real. Serious people have concerns, esp nostr:nprofile1qqsr6tj32zrfn7v0pu4aheaytdnnc6rluepq73ndc2tdjzus34gat9qpz4mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuerpd46hxtnfduhswulwwv, so they need serious consideration. If I can convince myself it is either not an issue or independent of script power, then I can reasonably purpose what Bitcoin would look like with maximal expressive power.

After that, I can look *backwards* and see if any subsets of that power make sense as stepping stones. I initially thought CTV (well, a more straightforward variant) made sense, as a common case, but brief discussions with Jonas Nick have me questioning whether it actually is still useful with full introspection (or, more clearly, what the right form would be).

As an aside: I think sponsors (done optimally) are necessary for any Bitcoin high-fee future. Feels like a side-quest though!

Sorry I don't have answers. This stuff is *not* simple, the details are critical, and some of our best minds from previous eras are absent :(

Reply to this note

Please Login to reply.

Discussion

mevil sounds evil.

anything MEV I just want to stay away from, gut tells me its off.

There are many arguments why it won't happen, but they're at a disadvantage because it *did* happen to Ethereum apparently.

Eth is scammy. but many don't want to see its early days when vitalik spent a lotta time in this city.

https://youtu.be/i6rV5HlbPTM

Yes, any proposal that may enable significant MEV needs to include a proof of why either the potential MEV is not, in fact, enabled, or the MEV it enables isn't harmful.

you realize you are asking smth impossible right?There is no other network with Bitcoin market cap + slow block time + inexpressive scripting language. MEV on Ethereum is real because of Solidity + fast block time that enable usages that will never be possible on Bitcoin. How can I prove to you that even if with CAT I can build an AMM, no one will actually use it like Uniswap and therefore not generate MEV?

Let's assume I can build an AMM. Now I need to understand exactly how they work in Eth, that makes this kind of thing impossible in Bitcoin. And I don't: it's not my thing.

but the AMM on Ethereum will work completely differently than a CAT based on Bitcoin, Ethereum has been designed for these applications. So even if technically CAT allows you to build an AMM, it doesn't mean it will ever be used.

So someone needs to argue convincingly that it won't, otherwise enabling CAT is epically dumb.

By designing the most efficient AMM possible, and then proving that it isn't profitable.

where would I deploy it?

who is paying you to shill this shit?

no one is paying me to say anything, I just speak my mind, I think everybody in the world should have the opportunity to experience a sound money like Bitcoin without sacrificing sovereignty. As Bitcoin L1 can't scale to all humans, we need other networks to onboard all those who wants. Is this shit to you? If yes, we disagree on what is shit and what is not.

We just need bitcoin unilateral-exit L2s to scale to the world. Not sure what "other networks" you're referring to...

I agree, I was referring to Lightning for instance

Correct, Lightning does not need CAT

it would bring eltoo iiuc tough

Eltoo does not need CAT. Just CTV+CSFS or LNHANCE.

indeed

Wherever you want? It doesn't need to go into production, it just needs to be a credible proof-of-concept

so a CAT based AMM on Liquid that doesn't leak MEV is good enough to convince you? Genuinely asking, thank you.

As long as it can be shown that the design is optimally efficient/profitable, and as long as it doesn't earn a profit, then yes.

it would earn a profit, that's not really the issue, is it? The issue is mevil i.e. could miner make more money, "stealing" from users. Do you agree?

>it would earn a profit, that's not really the issue, is it?

yes, that's precisely the issue because that means it would definitely get built and would definitely operate.

>The issue is mevil i.e. could miner make more money, "stealing" from users. Do you agree?

Yes, but MEVil is not an issue if the AMM is not profitable enough to operate.

interesting, we need to discuss this more first then :)

the AMM can be easily profitable by simply taking a cut on each trade, then competition will make the amount of this cut just enough so that the operator makes a small profit no?

Even if this AMM is less economically efficient than the same one on Ethereum, nothing will stop users to use it if they want to, knowingly or not that they are not using the most efficient tool.

That's why I say that profit is not an issue per se, only mevil is.

For me this is like saying operating a Lightning node in a profitable way is an issue. It is not, because miners can't extract MEV from LN txs.

>nothing will stop users from using it if they want to

The key question is, will they want to?

Even if the AMM takes a cut of every trade, if there are no traders, then the cost of building the thing in the first place will outweigh the revenue.

I agree. So you would be happy with seeing a not used CAT based AMM deployed on BSV or Liquid? Would this be enough to convince you it won't be popular on Bitcoin? thank you for bearing with me :)

#RTRDD

MEV is already happening partially to some extent with any form of on chain contract

LN inherently introduces MEV in the case of force closes and denying penalty transactions, for example

We appreciate you guys. Godspeed.

Who’s absent?

Greg Maxwell, Pieter Wuille, to name two.

I think I understand why they took a step back from public exposure, but I'd love to know their opinion too.

Thank you so much for your work, Rusty.

🫂

think it's time for you to admit that big money wants to see bitcoin as a store of value and nothing more.

What's the reason CSV isn't useful when you have full introspection?

Jonas Nick hasn't reviewed anything other than CTV yet based on last interaction and evaluation in the table.

CTV can be upgraded to CHECKTXHASHVERIFY and does more than basic covenants when used in combination with CSFS, CAT etc.

Even the objections with CTV are debatable and have been replied in the gist: https://gist.github.com/jonasnick/e9627f56d04732ca83e94d448d4b5a51

But CHECKTXHASH is still the wrong idea. You want to fix script then do full introspection, not this weird hash introspection which simply adds bloat.

You guys are gigabrains but anything that helps people worry less about wrench attacks seems like a perennial good. Personally I don’t think about innovation or cheaper exchange withdrawals I just want another tool for HODL. If that’s a specific OP CODE so be it.