A bunch of people have been shilling [Liquid](https://liquid.net/) has a scaling solution with on-chain fees on the rise. I wanted to take the time to breakdown why this is a fool's errand and there are better ways to go about this.

Liquid is based on [Elements](https://github.com/ElementsProject/elements) which as they claim in their README is `a collection of feature experiments and extensions to the Bitcoin protocol`. Liquid is just another blockchain. It is a fork of bitcoin with a few fancy things added (Tokens, CT, covenants) and bundled together with a 1 minute block time, federated custody, and some blockstream branding.

Blockchains do _not_ scale. As we are seeing today, the bitcoin blockchain does not have enough throughput for everyone's transactions. This is for good reason, keeping the cost of running a full node low is a priority, this was one of the main reasons the blocksize wars were fought.

So why does Liquid exist? People lately have been touting it as a way to ease fee pressure but in my opinion this is a fool's errand, no different than people back in 2017 saying to use litecoin because fees on bitcoin were too high. Liquid is just a fork of bitcoin, it has the exact same scaling problems and the only reason it has smaller fees is because it is never really been used. For now, it can work as a temporary stop-gap (essentially finding arbitrage for fees), but building actual infrastructure on top of liquid will run into the _exact_ same problems as on-chain bitcoin.

The problem is that Liquid is trying to use [trust as a scaling solution](https://trustisascalingsolution.com/) but did it in a completely inefficient way. When you are trusting the 11-of-15 multisig, you don't need all the benefits that a blockchain gives you, everything is dictated by the functionaries anyways. The problem is if liquid gets any meaningful amount of users it will also end up with huge fees and we'll be back to square one because Liquid's architecture didn't actually leverage any of the trust tradeoffs it took and just inherited all the same problems of on-chain bitcoin.

There are real solutions available. Lightning is the obvious alternative but it does have it's own problems, I think a lot of people have been seeing the problems with small scale self-custodial lightning, it is extremely hard to scale. This is why I am extremely excited about [fedimint](https://fedimint.org/). Fedimint has almost the exact same trust model of Liquid (a federated multisig) but is built on a much better architecture that actually allows for scaling. Fedimints don't have a blockchain but instead operate as a chaumian ecash mint. This allows for them to do actually innovative things instead of just being bitcoin plus a couple features. There isn't a block size, instead the transaction throughput is just gated by the processing power of the guardians. Smart contracts are limited by having to do everything on-chain with bitcoin script, they are pure rust code and allows for all sorts of crazy things. And it all still interoperates with Lightning, essentially giving a Wallet of Satoshi with way less rug-pull risk, tons of new features, and is extremely private.

All this said, it is sad we aren't talking about self-custodial scaling solutions. Today the only real one is Lightning and with current fees, it isn't reasonable unless you have a few million sats. The problem is that this is just inherently a limitation with Lightning. Lightning is excellent when you have high value channels and can make payments across the network, but it does excel at "pleb nodes" where one guy puts 100k sats to try it out, this comes with too many limitations with paying on-chain fees and needing to have reserves to pay future on-chain fees. However, this is potentially solvable. Lightning has solved the problem of scaling payments, where if you have channels, one on-chain transaction can represent many actual payments. What lightning did not solve is that one utxo still represents one user, and this is the limitation we are running into today. Currently the only way we solve this is using a multisig sig (Liquid and Fedimint), but we can solve this in a self-custodial way if we activated covenants. Covenants essentially let us give fine grained control of what is going to be spent from a UTXO before the UTXO even exists. Currently, there are a few proposals (CTV, APO, TXHASH) all with varying ways to do it and different tradeoffs, but imo something like this is desperately needed if we want any chance to scale bitcoin in a self-custodial way.

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Discussion

Bitdevs should be fun this month 😅

TLDR

coracle.social shows it as a long form post. wat client you use?

Nope, but it is a useful tool that Bitcoiners can opt to use like lots of other tools tho

Do covenants allow thousands of people to share a UTXO in a non-custodial way?

That's the hope

Fedimint is not a solution for anything. Doesn't add privacy, subtracts by adding counterparty risk. Maybe vaguely useful for poor connectivity times but honestly, you don't need much more than 56k dialup to do a tx on chain using neutrino/electrum SPV.

P2P payjoins would solve the fee problem tomorrow. Same as how batching solved the problem for exchanges.

Sidechains and altcoins do arbitrage the fee problem pretty good though, you can hold off on such a transfer a long time. Not sure if arbitrage is the right word since deferment is the main benefit.

Lightning is great but its poor availability (weak with bad connectivity) is very problematic. It's the exact thing that chaumian mints could resolve by allowing a deferment to settlement later, but I'm not sure whether they really do it better than an alt/side chain. Altcoins like Monero and Litecoin have practically zero counterparty risk.

There's like 10 wrong things in your post lol

😁 please spell them out

It was very lazy of him to be not even addressing one.

Not my high time preference problem he is too busy to say something meaningful. And to accuse me of using an LLM. I hate AI. I hate hype. I hate Elon Musk and I hate everyone. I think David Thrussell is the king of hate though. Fuckin legend. If you never heard Corporate Slave you are uncultured.

I think he’s kinda right about your take on it.

That's like 25 wrong characters in that lazy post.

Which points, mister influencoor.

Do you really think I'm here to cause trouble? Not worth any effort to educate, not even a couple minutes and a few sentences?

Chaumian mints may not know exactly which IP goes with which UTXO but they know which IPs as a group and they define which UTXOs. Smaller the less the privacy set.

The whole point of Bitcoin was eliminating most of the problems with Chaumian mints! Satoshi even said, and I think a quotebot just posted this one, that "the centralisation of federations and third parties doomed previous efforts to do ecash in the 90s and 00s.

I used egold. I met some of the slimebags that were doing HYIPs back in those days.

If you don't think a) I'm a legitimate human being worth any time at all and b) that I'm being hostile well, fine. GFY. I don't need to see your shit either.

Is this a bot?

Lol fuck you.

I wrote so. Much on the internet I could train an LLM with it and it'd sound like me of course.

Also, this is why GFY is my fave acronym these days.

Do your research and you'll learn that I type 80+wpm on my custom ID75 ortholinear mech keyboard.

Y'all can barely type 400 in a frenzy.

See, I'm not used to this touch keyboard. I hate mobile phones. I hate qwerty. I'm a bit of a grumpy Smurf because people are so fucking retarded. Qwerty keyboards. I bought an ortholinear kbd that used laptop style membranes and destroyed it in 6 months.

I switched to Dvorak in 2004 because I got so much pain from typing on a regular cheap membrane qwerty. 2 weeks and no more pain.

There are benefits to being “Bitcoin + extra features” so I wouldn’t downplay it. I realize you want to use fedimint for mutiny liquidity management but there’s no reason the two can’t coexist. Fedimint will likely have its own throughput issues as well.

What throughput issues do you foresee ?

Cashu is promising too but it’s still in beta and doesn’t have the same custodian structure as fedimint

What’s your take on cashu?

If it's just decentralized and permanently stored and unmodifiable, why can't they store inscriptions on Nostr😉

Probably because VC hasn’t done research on best way to exit scam on Nostr yet.

Absolutely

I agree that a ~9x increase in transaction throughput is _not_ a scaling solution, and Liquid is not a Lightning replacement or competitor. But it does make sense to take use of the lower fees of Liquid (there can be a 1000x difference).

Today it makes sense to keep long-term holdings on chain, middle-term mid sum amounts on Liquid, and short term spending on Lightning.

I would like to see expansion of direct Liquid-to-Lightning solutions, I think these would actually be beneficial for Lightning! When on chain fees are high, many people simply will not open new channels, and will gravitate towards custodial Lightning solutions. If Liquid-backed channels were an option in wallets, that would be an additional option for fee-sensitive users. Atomic Liquid-to-LN swaps exists and are convenient, but directly Liquid-based LN solutions are not mainstream (if exist at all).

On a final note, it seems that saturation of the Liquid side-chain is far in the future. When that happens, I speculate that the federation may decide to increase the capacity. An increase by a small factor will not solve scaling, but may be beneficial for the middle-ground usage of Liquid. The point is that it is much easier and less dangerous to change the blocksize in Liquid than on the main chain.