The status of monero π€£π«£
Discussion
I'm not gunna lie, the level of debate on nostr from both sides is pretty dog shit except nostr:nprofile1qqs27aqdrx96hwx8hqks53ccav65hvlk47dfscumsh22tncnw89t4pgpzamhxue69uhkvet9v3ejumn0wd68ytnzv9hxgtcppemhxue69uhkummn9ekx7mp0qywhwumn8ghj7mn0wd68ytndw46xjmnewaskcmr9wshxxmmd9ujactdr and nostr:nprofile1qqszrqlfgavys8g0zf8mmy79dn92ghn723wwawx49py0nqjn7jtmjagpz4mhxue69uhkummnw3ezummcw3ezuer9wchszyrhwden5te0dehhxarj9ekk7mf0qy88wumn8ghj7mn0wvhxcmmv9uynmh4h, seems like the rest of y'all just want to call names and use sophistry constantly.
We've beat this dead horse on Twitter for years in great detail.
I'm sure you haven't seen all my writings on the topic.
One day I'll rewrite, unfortunately those threads are lost as I deleted my handle for good.
But to say I only use name calling here is not genuine.
I'm not saying only, but seems to be where the conversation goes more than half the time.
Just schedule a god damn 3 hour debate on corny chat and record it already and have people vote before and after.
agree that the state of the debate is pretty sad.
mostly because maxis arent serious thinkers about privacy.
I'd be game, hell it could be right now if anyone actually wanted to talk; I'm not the cowardly one, nor am I in a cowardly lot.
The ball's on the other side of the court.
Why should there even be a debate?
I think you have to have the same mining algo for at least a certain number of years to even begin taking monero seriously.
They changed their mining algo like 3x since inception I believe.
The first pivot came to resist Asics, which is anti free market.
Even if we reach some threshold of consistency you then have to accept that mining with the best hardware available gets you pennies in mining rewards for a very, very expensive investment.
This curbs it's censorship resistance big time.
As who realistically wants to mine without an option for reward?
It's untenable.
Let's say you get over all that?!
Monero hasn't seen a meaningful uptick in base transaction count in years.
Stuck in neutral in the 20-25k range.
We also saw how susceptible the chain is to spam attacks - which comes very cheaply tbh.
This is a clear risk as every monero user knows you need a larger anonymity set if spam attacks can clearly be an order of magnitude larger than base load transaction count.
Spam attack max TX count was 140k.
Base load is 20-25k.
We don't know how many of those daily transactions are spam.
Don't even get me started on hardforks & backwards compatibility.
Everytime monero hardforks you simply can not avoid updating your wallet to the newest version.
There is no way to just say fuck it and keep going.
You're pretty much a slave to the main monero community.
Even your HWW will need to be updated when this happens.
Hardforks will continue with monero as privacy is a cat and mouse game.
Then there's shit like the multisig vulnerability of 2021.
This was a big issue & after the mining stuff made me think that monero is just hard to trust.
https://www.getmonero.org/2021/12/06/vulnerability-multisig.html
The 2022 hardfork included changes in fee structure that was lauded by monero users.
<2yrs later you had that spam attack.
So when you sit there and wonder why there isn't more transactions/users understand it's been a bumpy ride.
More bumpy than monero users want to admit.
They shit on Bitcoiners, but they're hypocritical.
Be honest, it's been bumpy with potholes everywhere.
& I havent even listed all of em,
There was another deanonymization issue in 2023.
Here's a new paper describing more attack vectors.
Just glossed over it, no bueno.
There's more for sure, but remember we only know what's disclosed.
https://www.ndss-symposium.org/ndss-paper/eclipse-attacks-on-moneros-peer-to-peer-network/
Like I said hardforks are coming no matter what.
More on the spam attack:
"According to Rucknium, the entire spam wave only cost between 61.5 and 81.3 Monero (XMR), depending on which fee models the attacker used (which is difficult to determine exactly since Monero is anonymous). That's about 6500-9000 euros, which is not really a lot for a 23-day attack."
More on mining profitability:
More on mining.
User in disbelief, asked reddit π€£
Here is a fun reddit thread from 2days ago.
Please read it.
In case you don't want to go to reddit here's a nice snippet...
Snippet continued...if read it all & the comments...
An effective ring size of 4.2 is still better spender deniability than Bitcoin transactions + amount and receiver privacy isn't affected by this whatsoever
It's also exponential with every additional hop. ring size^hops = 4.2^3 = ~74 potential decoys = ~1% chance of tracing the true spend after 2 additional transactions
An imperfect Monero is still leagues better for privacy than Bitcoin
FCMP will also make this attack obsolete
This effective ring size plus how cheap it is to run a spam attack is proof you're cherry picking to protect your POV.
Be honest, that spam attack was too easy to do.
What am I cherrypicking? It's a simple fact that even an imperfect Monero is much better for privacy than Bitcoin.
You still have spender deniability even under this attack and amount/receiver privacy remain ZK
>"Be honest, that spam attack was too easy to do."
Yes, which is why Monero is moving to FCMP. It's entire history is incremental but substantial improvements to privacy (RingCT, increases to ring size, dandelion, etc). This case is no different.
It's a joke man, there's always a next hardfork that's gonna make monero work well π.
2022 hardfork promised to fix the fee issues and yet we're here again π.
This time though you're gonna have to tweak randomX.
Basically another reset of the hashing algo.
Yuck.
What fee issues? It's working as we speak and has continued to work for 10 years.
It's funny you bring up "fee issues" when any time there is even a modest increase in use Bitcoin becomes infeasible for most people and Lightning explodes like earlier last year.
More straw manning. Bitcoin was perfectly usable even in the most extreme fee market situations.
Which lasted what? Hours at a time?
You're lying to people man, monero spam attack lasted almost an entire month.
You can't even deny that some portion of your daily transactions might be a spammer / chainalysis.
It's so cheap for them to do it.
2022 hardfork there were clear changes to the fee structure.
Now more proposals have come in to change it further because of how cheap it is to attack your network.
and monero kept working all through the spam attack also
(which was likely a black marble attack)
so whats your point?
You don't know what a strawman is lmao
I'm not lying I posted the receipts. It's not even a secret.
Omg upgrades to improve things so scary π±
Grandstanding means the end of the convo, great.
You can't even focus on the threat models in monero you bring up Bitcoin constantly.
Strawmaning, grandstanding, etc..
Just admit you guys are still ironing out major kinks a decade later & be honest.
>just admit you guys are still ironing out major kinks a decade later & be honest
Monbros can at least admit there's shortcomings, when has an NGU hypeman ever done the same regarding Bitcoin?
Oh that's right, never.
Are you serious? π€£
Bro you just blurt out dumb shit for sport.
Again, referencing Bitcoin as a deflection tactic.
>gets called out for blatantly lying about and/or wildly exaggerating issues with monero that are actively being worked on
>doubles down on said bullshit
>claims deflection when asked to hold bitcoin to the same standards NGU hypemen hold monero to
lol, lmao even
Strawman, red herring, reverse uno
I win
dude
just because you cruised through some bullshit on reddit
doesnt make you informed.
there are no proposed changes to RandomX.
the spam attack was no big deal, hardly anybody noticed.
the people who DID notice were certain wallet users who's werent properly adjusting tx fees.
knock it off with the posturing and doublespeak.
Ufffff man this so bad on you.
I've followed all of this in real time, I've been covering monero since 2017.
Disregarding everything I said by gaslighting.
Your reputation precedes you.
huh
ive never seen you in the IRC or Matrix chat
you know
where the REAL conversations actually happen.
weird.
"ive bullshit around twatter and repeated maxi slogans for years"
isnt the own you think.
Again, with the strawman grandstanding instead of admitting you guys are still working out major kinks 10yrs later.
Attacking my character or referencing Bitcoin is all you guys have.
Just be transparent about the threat models and the unknowns or don't - but people smell your bullshit from a mile away.
you legit dont even know WHERE THE CONVERSATIONS ARE HAPPENING
but want to pose like
ive been "covering monero" since 2017
just do better ok?
or get on IRC and actually talk to the community. it aint on twitter, it aint in nostr.
More grandstanding.
You've made zero points in a while and are wasting everyone's time and polluting this thread.
"The first pivot came to resist Asics, which is anti free market."
How is ASIC resistance anti free market? You don't have to mine/use Monero if you don't want to.
This is like saying Bitcoin blocksize limit is anti free market
"this is like saying Bitcoin block size..."
No it's not that's a strawman argument.
Next.
They're both artificial restrictions.
he just likes to say "strawman"
he doesn't actually use it correctly.
When you bring up an outside example to knock it down it's called a strawman.
Sheesh you're stupid.
That is incorrect.
Using an example or metaphor to refute someones argument is NOT strawmanning.
Shi shi, what they're saying isn't a straw man. If anything it's a a red herring, but it seems valid in the discussion
Deflection, again.
Na, you're just be inconsistent.
If Bitcoins artificial limit on blocksize is free market (it is), then so is Moneros ASIC resistant algo. Both networks are voluntary to join or leave.
If you think you have a better way to do it, fork Bitcoin or Monero and see who joins.
Thanks! I cannot comment on it myself, as this is quite detailed knowledge and you may have a very good point.
However, my point is that Bitcoin has an issue with privacy on a consumer level. And as of now, it couldn't be solved without compromising Bitcoin's security and decentralization. So, people went to solve that problem by building their own L1 that delivers privacy. Not everything may be perfect in its development, but the work is valuable. If we could bring privacy to Bitcoin, e.g. building on the knowledge of Monero, wouldn't that be something?! No Monero user would be against that. But instead, many are having fun wasting their energy on my coin is better than your coin tribal fight.