Cypherpunks who have more purchasing power don’t have an advantage? Even if they use monero p2p?
Discussion
✅ EtherFi Airdrop Is Live!.
👉 https://telegra.ph/EtherFi-05-03 Claim your free $ETHFI.
The cypherpunks / cryptoanarchists top priority is have privacy and anonymity, not become rich from a speculative cryptocurrency that is not fungible and don't have privacy at all
How is it not fungible? You guys keep saying that but no one is giving a reason why.
Every BTC has a publicly visible history, that makes some coins "tainted" and AML tools reject them or you will get into trouble for things previous owners of your BTC did, for example, gambling or darknet markets.
This also affects many BTC you buy on P2P platforms.
Hi, would you mind telling me which wallet do you use for receiving and sending sats, plz?
i use several different wallets on phone and desktop
So, I imagine a mixture of custodial and self-custodial wallets then. Im just wanting to decide for a beginner like me, using a custodial wallet won’t hurt much.
Custodial wallets make lazy. If you start custodial you'll keep it that way until you lose it.
Alrighty. Thanks for getting back to me!
the provider of the custodial wallets sees and stores all your transactions, exactly like a bank. Furhermore, they know the address you funded your custodial wallet from - so they can also analyze what you did with your coins in the past. You have zero privacy when you use custodial wallets.
If you want fungibility and privacy, BTC is not what you want to use.
Thank you. In that case, the so called “silent payment” option for Bitcoin transactions in Cake Wallet is just “privacy” in name, not in function?
There's plenty of evidence that BTC is not fungible https://stacker.news/items/926959
This is talking about Bitcoin exchanges blocking certain utxos. Many exchanges block all monero. Whats the difference?
You already answered, some bitcoin is treated different than others, while all Monero is treated the same
So blocking all monero on exchanges and being forced to use it p2p is fungible but blocking some bitcoin on exchanges and being forced to use it p2p is not fungible?
being able to differentiate between units and selectively block shows it IS NOT fungibile, that is correct 👍
a CEX unilaterally deciding to not accept because *it cant differentiate between units* shows you that it IS fungibile.
utxos with different histories are nonfungible
a transparent ledger doesn't only transmit value
it also de facto transmits reputation
How are those certain utxos not fungible?
theyre not fungibile because their different histories are known
So if the history is known, then the bitcoin can’t be spent from the utxo?
if the history is known, it is de facto nonfungible with another utxo with a different history. even if they have the same value.
to jump to the end
the "the network doesnt care" reductionism is not impressive.
that just indicates maxis are unwilling to actually look at the network in the context of how it is actually used.
So if the utxo history is known, then the blockchain will never mine it for future spending?
whatever prospect a utxo has in the mempool doesn't have anything to do with its fungibility.
if somebody can differentiate between units it is not fungibile.
its very simple.
You can differentiate between dollars and gold bars too. They have serial numbers. Are gold and dollars not fungible?
in practice, USD bills are fungible despite the serial numbers.
but if the movement of a bill was published to an online database anyone with a web browser could audit,
then it would no longer be fungible.
That’s what I’m trying to say regarding bitcoin p2p. Until certain Bitcoin transactions are completely censored on the base chain, what practical difference does it make if some are not accepted on exchanges? I hope more bitcoin is blocked on exchanges so people will use it p2p. Fuck exchanges and all their kyc bullshit.
Side note: I do expect a large scale censorship attack to happen at some point on bitcoin and I believe the fee market is what will determine censorship resistance. As the incentive to mine “illegal” utxos grows, I believe miners will take on the risk of breaking compliance. I also think it’s encouraging to see that ocean is allowing miners to build their own templates and decentralize mining.
hang about, the conversation was about fungibility.
whether it's accepted or not on a CEX is just an indicator of its fungibility (or lack thereof). thats the only reason it came up.
i agree about the mining and censorship resistance and am excited to see how it plays out.
but the point was that they can selectively decide WHAT txs to attempt to censor because Bitcoin isn't fungible.
whereas with Monero the only option is to delist the whole thing (because its fungible and selective censorship isnt possible)
Right but I’m saying that it hasn’t been proven that there is any practical difference between utxos on the main chain. Until a utxo is effectively censored on the main chain, I don’t see how bitcoin is not fungible.
Let me illustrate with an example. You mentioned that physical dollars are fungible but digital dollars are not. And I know you are aware that they have serial numbers so they can be traced. If those dollars are blacklisted based on their serial numbers, banks will reject them. But you can still use them p2p. So are dollars fungible?
like I said, whether its actively being censored by miners or not doesn't make it fungible or not.
its whether you CAN differentiate between units or not that makes it fungible.
so according to your example, those bills are not fungibile.
like a cop drama with the invisible ink that marks the stolen money or whatever. those bills lose their fungible quality.
*it doesn't matter whether the counterparty accepts them or not*
they can be identified as different than another bill of the same denomination.
therefore not fungibile.
unfortunately ALL Bitcoin utxos have tracked serial numbers.
So in your opinion, monero is fungible but bitcoin, dollars, and gold are not fungible?
bills that are marked (or have their serial numbers listed and checked ) are not fungible.
banks generally dont check the serial numbers when you make a deposit so most cash remains fungible.
units of gold are readily interchangeable afaik.
units of #monero can be distinguished in certain circumstances. there was the MOrdinals thing for a second, those were nonfungible. if wallet data is available to The Adversary it can effect fungibility.
so like cash or gold, in certain situations certain units of monero can lose their fungibility.
on #Bitcoin everything is wide open and anyone can see tx flows. units of equal value are readily distinguished from each other.
therefore not fungible.
except in situations like Whirlpool, where the set of those utxos are *fungible with each other* but are NOT fungible with other nonWhirlpool utxos.
