Really? How many Monero full nodes are there? I can't imagine that it would be anything close to the number on Bitcoin, though we should always be encouraging more.
Discussion
They'll claim that monero is so decentralized rland private that you can't tell how many nodes there are.
But then ignore centralized updates pushing new releases every 6 months to prevent efficiency through use of ASICs
Yes, but even with that, the latest estimate of the number of full nodes on Monero is sub 1,000. Meanwhile, Bitcoin likely has over 50k.
You see no benefit to nearly anyone being able to participate, and discretely mine, on already available general purpose consumer hardware? From that aspect, I don't see how it is not more decentralized.
Bitcoin mining becomes less in reach of the average pleb because of highly specialized and expensive ASICs. Increasingly done by easily targetable corporate mining farms.
I can see arguments for both.
I see the benefit in not artificially gatekeeping the ability to validate supply and publish blocks by leaving it up to software updates 👀
So, is all FOSS considered gatekeeping to you? Because it works the same way.
If an update is really that contentious it will fork. Monero community has a clear goal to pursue, private p2p digital cash, and been overwhelmingly in agreement on updates.
Willing to bet you have never taken advantage of bitcoin's transparency and manually validated supply. So, a bit larpish. But you might trust a node is doing it correctly for you. Exactly like a monero node. Just because you don't know how pedersen commitments work doesn't mean your node can't do it.
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You're willing to bet I never ran gettxoutsetinfo on my node? I run lightning, my node has to do it every block 😅
You're an idiot who doesn't understand the trade-off your shitcoin made much less the math that is being used 😅
Stop ignoring your Bitcoin homework 😗
Manually means manually. You aren't taking advantage of bitcoin's transparency by typing in a command. Go ahead. Read and tally every UTXO on the blockchain by hand let's see if it balances out and implementation is correct. In practice, no one does.
Remember, you are the one touting it's transparency as it's strength, while not taking advantage of it, not me.
I understand the trade-offs of both and use both. You are the one who seems not to.
Wtf are you talking about? It totally balances out 😅 all the sats are accounted for at every point in time (although not all have to be collected), down to the bit starting from block 0
If trusting a node to validate supply for you is fine, what is the problem when monero does it? Are you concerned of the complex math involved? (20+ year old cryptography)
You can't simply sum UTXOs like bitcoin. But, in practice, no one takes advantage of this anyway, they just run and trust a node to do it, so what does the real world difference come down to?
You don't sum utxos, you trace them back to their origin/Coinbase 🥹 perhaps become more familiar with Bitcoin core before spouting nonsense
To validate supply, you trace utxos back to make sure transactions are recognized throughout the Bitcoin network as being legitimate -- meaning it was included in a previous block by performing work following consensus rules. The supply is validated when utxos are accounted for (utxos not accounted for would be fake Bitcoin), many nodes only account for their own wallet/utxos. Bitcoin allows anyone to do this because validation can be done independently from proof of work.
Are you going to refute my central point or go off on semantics?
Are you having a node validate this for you or not?
You're not making any points, your spouting nonsense 🤷
Lol, you just keep dodging. I've been holding the same point throughout this whole conversation that you don't address.
Just admit you don't have any good arguments against what I said. Goodbye.
No you really didn't make a point. Monero doesn't validate supply like Bitcoin does and you didn't quite understand the process so I explained it to you.
Not even a thank you, Rude! 😤
Thank you.
Let me give this one final shot.
You bitcoin node. Me monero node.
I can't manually verify. You *dont* manually verify.
Same, same.
What difference in practice? Both trusting node to correctly validate for us.
I run a lightning node. I have to validate the Bitcoin supply in order to make off-chain payments (⚡). Your monero node doesn't validate the supply because depending when and what version you run, it can't 🤷
If I don't validate the supply every block, how can my lightning node know the state of the channel graph to construct payment routes? How can I know to reject peers trying to make payments through channels published with non-existent utxos? The answer is I have to 😅 Bitcoin is a monetary network where all economic actors can independently validate supply and publish transactions
What on earth is this manually-validate business? You need pen and paper, idiot?
My monero node is validating the supply right now according to you.
All you can do is lob insults and emoji spam.
When you type in a command to your node to audit supply are you doing that work yourself? Or are you typing in a couple keys and hitting enter? What is essentially a blackbox to you is spitting out a number that you are assuming is correct. There could be 42 million bitcoin out there and you would have no clue, but because of an implementation error or bug it could be telling you otherwise.
Cannot tell if legitimately ignorant or being intellectually dishonest. Either way nothing I can do about it.
It's not a black box at all 😬
That's the whole point of Bitcoin, every thing is out in the open, the code behind the issuance, the schedule, even the math behind the hashing can be understood by a child
Your monero on the other hand? I love math, if you actually understood the crypto used in xmr, you should be getting math grants instead of shilling shit tokens 🤷 like seriously, world could use more mathematicians and less shit token salesman
Do you understand every line of code? or any code at all? Then it is a blackbox to you. You're trusting others. Impossible for any bugs to occur that no one foresaw? As we all know, bugs don't exist on software /s
"That's the whole point of Bitcoin, every thing is out in the open, the code behind the issuance, the schedule, even the math behind the hashing"
Everything said here applies to Monero. Are you endorsing Monero?
It'd be hard to build Bitcoin core without knowing every line of code 😅
Everyone should try, it's a good goal to have once you get curious enough about bitcoin 🧐
Lmao. As if bitcoin doesn’t have gatekeepers. That’s a good one
Proof of work means there's no gatekeepers
Go back to school 😗
Not agreeing with whatever that guy was saying to Jeff, but Monero and Bitcoin nodes are in the same ballpark. Near 11k reachable xmr nodes vs 16.6k reachable bitcoin nodes . Impressive to me considering xmr is a much smaller market. I'm running both.
The only thing I saw from the source you linked to about Monero nodes was ~24 peers. The only 11k number was referring to hours, not nodes.
Here's couple more I was able to dig up: The most favorable one says 1980 nodes. The less favorable one (154 nodes) is from another page on the same site you linked to.
None of them come anywhere close to the reachable nodes on Bitcoin, let alone the estimated total nodes.
Peers seen in 24 hours, not 24 peers
My mistake. Thank you for clarifying.
Why is that number so vastly higher than every other estimate of the number of nodes on the network that I have been able to find, including from other pages on that same site?
Not sure tbh 🤔
I read somewhere that a lot of Monero nodes change their IP addresses on a frequent basis. Could it be that this site is counting each IP as an entirely different node and just adding up all of them it has seen in the last 24 hours, thus inflating the number?
Sure, I guess anything is possible, but if we would be fair in our assumptions I don't see why the same couldn't be said of bitcoin node IPs. Would want more proof that this is the case for either.
From what I can see, the methodology for counting nodes on monero.fail/map is prone to counting the same node multiple times, because it counts every node it sees within a 24 hour period, while but nodes.io counts Bitcoin nodes only once because it is looking at a snapshot of reachable nodes at a given time. This means it will exclude offline nodes that are only turned on periodically, but also means there isn't a danger of a node getting counted multiple times.
Given the differences in methodology, and how far in excess that 11k number is from every other estimate of the number of nodes on Monero's network that I have been able to find, while estimates of Bitcoin's reachable nodes are always within a couple thousand of each other, I have to conclude that it is inaccurate, and Monero likely has between several hundred to a little over 1000 reachable nodes.
This estimate also makes sense given it's market cap is $2.7b compared with Bitcoin's $528b, adjusting for the fact that a larger percentage of people who own Monero are likely true believers in it, and therefore more willing to go through the work of running their own node.