Nostr Web Client

And this examples represents why ecash without bitcoin wasnt possible (or at least ridicoulous).

We set trust on a layer of near-instant settlement of absolute digital scarcity.

Easy to accept ecash, easy to switch mint and have a lot of custodial that not necessarly need to trust each other but can form an interconnected net.

So excited, with ecash this fucking internet of money seems finally among us 😮😨

and the "interconnected net" is set on the truth of bitcoin, not the fiat mafia

ecash without crypto*.

The general principle (and the advantages and drawbacks) apply equally. #monero #ecash would be interesting to explore as well, for example.

so the monetary debasement become certainity

Well, that's not a very fair comment. The tail emission is of a very small amount, its value is known, and last but not the least, it's a voluntary choice to use it or not.

Actually, to finish expanding on that last point, using it as currencybdoesn't have to mean storing value in it, much in the same way that you wouldn't store your entire btc fortune (real or imagined) on a hot wallet of some random ecash mint, right?

There are no solutions, only tradeoffs (Thomas Sowell)

It was a joke, tail emission doesnt change nothing.

My position is that ecash scale incredibily well and it gains from being based on a the bitcoin absolute digital scarcity layer.

I dont see any point basing its value on other currency; they will trend to zero and collapse in the next years. In some ways, ecash is the last piece of the puzzle that makes absolutely useless shitcoins because you have a better product for every use cases they try to cover.

I'm more private with ecash than monero, I've an infinitely more smart experience with ecash than monero, will pay infinitely less fees and in the end, I will manage better the possibility to being rugged by choose trusted multi-custodians.

See btc/xmr chart to see how shitcoiners are rugged across time.

Could be a funny experiment, but nothing I'm interested to see/expect some value😅

So you change your mind when numbers go up again for Monero?

no, its still a shitcoin and in a long enough time will trend to zero.

> Most advanced cryptographic constructs to ensure privacy and anonymity whilst transacting digitally.

> By far the largest network effect of any project aiming to preserve privacy and anonymity in finance.

>> Calls it a shitcoin

And this #monero friends is what toxic bitcoin maximalism looks like.

monero friends want to sell their shitcoin while bitcoin maxis expose the truth and all what you said here is false. Monero is not so private and the solutions it uses are all developed by bitcoiners and then not implemented because they are not compatible with security and scalability.

Still waiting for you to tell me amounts and addresses I'm interacting with on my Monero address 🥱

89spcfRbp8EZZF2Qf9qJNSBjbx7fJAdJcEf64GBP1Vgg8yNrKHVLtJXLt4jWr3hcYeYUePpKfg5MkNYsjNc9sx3m3ymcMt4

this nostr:nevent1qqsr8vc05prrsh4kvj9qsyxcd77jz8v4962z0jesx5xd07dz8wksyrspz4mhxue69uhkummnw3ezummcw3ezuer9wchsygpaq0znvzzptvwhrrrhsmhpp0d5ueaua5ezql3j3q8wnezrqxseaspsgqqqqqqscyj8gl

So I'm also asking you to tell me the amount of bitcoin I interact with

Post your on chain address just like I posted mine and I will

It would be a fresh generated address with nothing to see, so stop with this. Dont expose your data is the only real protection against privacy violation, and it is possible (a bit difficult and expensive) on bitcoin. Monero makes it easy, but all the user are called to pay the price in scalability of txs validation

https://bitinfocharts.com/top-100-richest-bitcoin-addresses.html

What a cop out. I sent you a transaction with an address that I use. So you should do that same to keep it fair. Not a "fresh generated" one.

Just admit you're wrong when you said Monero wasn't private earlier. You keep detracting into other thing that have nothing to do with it's privacy like "scalability" (scalable in what way? Surely $100+ transaction fees that continue to increase are not scalable)

You can't avoid exposing your addresses and balances even if it's just to the peers you receive and give Bitcoin to.

You shouldn't have to trust everyone who you send and receive money from.

You never consolidate any transactions ever?

You always coinjoin for every transaction?

Bitcoin can never be private, it's a transparent public ledger. You can temporarily be kind of psuedonymous though if you're autistically anal about every transaction and like paying a lot of money to do it.

the point is that the rule number one is not exposing your txs and dont make identity-correlations, is like I'm asking you for a monero view key. You can use bip-47, silent payments, lightning submarine swap, coinjoin... and never do address reuse. I said it is not so easy, sometimes expensive and a bit problematic. But monero is not a solution. Long tern is a shitcoin that will implode under his tradeoffs and economic incentive distortions. Short term you have the problem of enter in a pool of liquidity so small that makes trivial (for a chainal company that uses data from exchanges and swaps, not for me..) to makes correlation. Also, swapping in and out bitcoin will be expensive and more detrimental for the privacy, even with atomic swaps.

I think as tool could be used well for a short term privacy gain from expert individual (so individual that are able to be private even on bitcoin, but anyway could have thier use-cases...) but the long term economy of the shitcoin is doomed.

also a lot of narrative misconceptions from monero guys that distort things to sell their shitcoins (not all of them, but most of them). Great part of monero community is pure shitcoinery-like bullshit masked as "cypherpunk privacy activism".

Some of you are well intentioned (I was actually on of you the first year I discovered that "cryptocurrencies" exist) but too inexpert to put things in perspective and easily fooled by narrative distortion.

"If really bitcoin is bad and monero is the real bitcoin, then I can buy "the real bitcoin" at a discount price" - this is what a lot of monero guys subtly think (and what every shitcoiner think of their shitcoin).

I will stop to interact with monero people real quick because find it boring and there are a lot of things in bitcoin that merit more attention.

I hope you all will find your way, life will bring to all the reward for their merits.

Stupid people/scammers will have what they deserve and it will not being caused by the "blockstream conspiracy" or something else you can invent.

Monero community is least price-focused of probably any. Especially versus Bitcoin. So no clue what you're speaking of.

Na dude you're projecting with that price stuff. If Bitcoin dropped 90% and stayed there indefinitely I highly doubt you would be in it still.

but if something is money and is scarce will go up forever compared to easily printed money, its an important feature and is the first feature of money (and then bitcoin): preserve wealth across time and space. Monero is a shitcoin and cant do that and it is the first reason it doent have any sense. You can "give" me privately monero but when this crypto bubble will vanish you wouldnt eventually be able to buy anything because monero value, as all easily printed shitcoins, trends to nothing.

https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Scarcity-Fallacy

You can't "print" Monero. You have to mine it, trade for it, or work for it. Just like Bitcoin.

Gold has constant inflation and is more popular than Bitcoin by far and has been mined for thousands of years.

All the matter is issuance is decentralized, predictable, and requires PoW (fiat money is none of those things)

Crypto will always be around. That cat is out of the bag. There will never only be just one Bitcoin just like there isn't just one precious metal or currency.

you can print infinite monero-like utility tools that try to solve privacy better and they alll will to keep the value.

Nope. It's not that easy. Just like Bitcoiners always argue about network effects, Monero has the lions share in network effects for privacy coins.

It would have to retain the same properties (self custody, unstoppable, permissionless, etc) and be much much better to draw users over. Not equal or just a little bit better. But if that happened then I would end up using it. I don't care as long as it retains the same spirit.

shortwavesurfer2009 1y ago

I guess like anything it will all be found out in time. However, my money is definitely on Monero. Since I was run away from Bitcoin in 2017 when it cost me $10 to potentially buy a coffee complete and utter bullshit. If l1 is not private and cheap, it will be centralized, and when it is centralized, it is completely useless.

You're conflating anonymity (pseudonymity really) with privacy. One hides identity, the other hides content/actions.

No, it's not like that at all. The point is with Bitcoin you DONT NEED a view key to see everyones transactions. That's the problem.

*BIP-47 is dead atm Samourai was shutdown and leaked metadata on chain anyway.

*Silent Payments don't hide your addresses from your counter parties or timing/amount analysis.

*Coinjoin is obfuscation - it doesn't hide/encrypt anything.

*Address reuse and consolidation is unavoidable for most users. One small mistake undoes years of "privacy".

Look at all the work you have to do and time/money spent to still end up with inferior privacy to Monero

You're still bringing up things that have zero to do with privacy like "economic incentive distortions" whatever that means

A small dark pool >>>>> a large transparent pool

Yes Monero doesn't protect you when transacting on exchanges obviously. Nothing does.

e2

harpo 1y ago

still waiting for that privacy proof ina form of a wallet address and monero is scam claim. Easy to talk shit and then just pretend you received a monero address while still not goving your btc out.

bitcoin is private if you dont do address reuse, coinjoin, use silent payments... Its like I'm asking to see your monero viewkey. Monero has some protections to enable a better privacy, but it fails if in the block there arent much txs. It also fails in every other aspect. Still, I'm happy with my life without shitcoin and will mute all that retards.

For me it's curious, I think ecash is interesting but in the end it's just an IOU.

The mint can rug you, hot wallet exploits can take your bitcoin from the mint while you're left holding useless ecash, and the complexities of merchants accepting random ecash minted from random mints (any mint can forge any amount of ecash backed by nothing) don't seem trivial to solve to me.

In other words, you are looking for less fees and more privacy, and #monero already offers you this today, with no counterparty/rug risk; but because of cognitive bias people with the maximalist mind virus are unable to see it.

It's certainly fascinating to observe: the logical inconsistencies, the wishful thinking, and the black-and-white thinking "only btc has value, everything else is a scam! there is no second best! bitcoin or nothing! bitcoin is perfect everything else sucks!".

It would be funny if it wasn't such a widespread meme. Instead, it's tragic.

Hint: one can (also) use monero, save in Bitcoin. It's not black-and-white, it's not all-or-nothing.

Anyway, I see that I'm not gonna change your mind. Happy stacking!

Monero counterparty risk is high hardforks happens every year basically next hardfork is planned to rugged all old wallet because it will not be retrocompatible

That's the nature of all FOSS.

You don't control who uses what software or not.

You realize as ideological Bitcoiners are diluted with more and more normies and white market business it's very possible that the economic majority could shift and move to more "regulatory compliant" forks right?

The real question is if that happens and the "real" Bitcoin is banned from white markets would you still be all in for freedom money regardless of price? (which would tank in that scenario)

this is absolutely nonsense. Bitcoin has reached a userbase and a decetralization non replicable, and the conseguences are the opposite of what you proposing: it is so difficult to change bitcoin. Who forks their "BeTtEr version" and try to convince others that "this is now bitcoin" has never reached his goal, and it becomes everyday more difficult even to soft fork as bitcoin continue to be adopted globally and to become more and more resistent to change.

Compliance, white-market bitcoin is economic nonsense. Is like "imagine if they will accept only golds coin with a certain symbol, gold is not fungible". This is absolute bullshit.

Monero isnt a fork of Bitcoin goofy. You clearly know nothing about Monero.

I was talk about bcash in this example

ecash is interesting because it is well designed (not like monero) capable of scale (not like monero) solve some problems (not like monero) and in the end it has his tradeoff (like monero)

Cyber Seagull 1y ago

Monero can scale. Even higher than bitcoin base, lightning or ecash. As long as there are many DEX's.

Because it is fungible, getting into and out of high transaction speed second layers is easy.

good luck🙏😂

"well designed" depends on your goals and use case

Major downsides of Ecash is that the underlying asset is custodial and Ecash reintroduces seigniorage (mints can print ecash on a whim). Bitcoins only major value props are destroyed. You bringing back trust and custodians.

With Monero you can have privacy without sacrificing custody or seigniorage

Ecash is also not exclusive to Bitcoin. You can have Ecash on Monero. It's just an IOU.

ecash is not in competition with bitcoin, its enabled by bitcoin and lighting network to express its better form.

Is a tool, it doesnt scam (makes clear what are the risks and what are the porpouse, unlike monero) and it is a layer of standardized low barrier custodians possibility.

Ecash is a competitor of wallet of satoshi or netflix for example, all the custodians (not only monetary) that uses a ID-databases to offer their services.

It permit perfect privacy to user. Market competition (low barried, so much competition) will select trusty custodians (maybe someone who offer better proof of reserve). Rug pulls will definitevely happes, like for every custodian-based system.

It is opt-in; if you need it you can search for someone to trust that offer you this service and use it, managing the risks. Nothing more.

I'm happy for this possibility and use this service being conscius of the risks.

Ecash is not in competition with Monero either. They accomplish different uses.

Even Lightning is not exclusive to Bitcoin.

Lightning is on Litecoin.

Lightning is possible with Moneros Seraphis upgrade.

How does Monero scam? Show me where it promises to pump your bags or get you rich.

Monero is also opt-in and so is every other crypto out there.

so good luck, time will judge our decisions, its pointless to discuss.

No, time will judge you. We are early Bitcoiners without a maxi mindset/built here fallacy.

Bitcoin alone is just what it is. Not more. That's why we hedge certain trade offs between BTC, LN, Ecash, Monero.

no, time is a good judge for every choice but you are too dumb for understand this concept.

Still, it is what it is, everyone could expect the future he merits based on how he has been retarded in their past choices, so pointless to continue discussing.

Good life🙏

and for the "monero achieve privacy" thats false: it try to achieve privacy, sacrificing a lot in terms of scalability and security in the end it doenst achieve privacy cause little anonset. Also, and most important, it is a shitcoin and blablabla maximalist rants that you dont want to ear. Time will reveal truth and it is the best judge😸

Monero achieves false privacy?

Ok here is my Monero address:

89spcfRbp8EZZF2Qf9qJNSBjbx7fJAdJcEf64GBP1Vgg8yNrKHVLtJXLt4jWr3hcYeYUePpKfg5MkNYsjNc9sx3m3ymcMt4

Tell me how much money is in it and what addresses I've sent or received from

Lol how big do you think your ecash anonset is? Especially when the goal is many mints that will fracture your anonset

so tell my how many sats I have, on chain or in ecash in the minibits mint. See? Seems that privacy works here.

I'm not the one claiming ecash isn't private.

You're the one claiming Monero isnt.

Sure, give me your Bitcoin address on chain, just like I gave you my Monero address, and I'll tell you

He will never give you his BTC address as he knows it will compromise his privacy and also deanoymise his Nostr identity.

Of course he wont 😂

e2

harpo 1y ago

nope...not even remotely the same. give him the address just like he gave it to you. Thats the only real comparison possible.

goatmeal 1y ago

who is ecash even for? you like bitcoin but you don't like the only things that make it special, so you'll "use" it in some convoluted way that removes all the special qualities? I just don't get it. why would anyone want this?

Ecash is a nice invention for trusted environments of which on a grand scale of things there are currently only a few places where it makes sense.

I would love to see someone build a Monero ecash mint.

So e.g. for a conference you could buy your ticket with Monero and get some ecash tokens for fast and easy and private spending at the conference, where you likely trust the organisers. And then after the conference the mint gets closed automatically and any leftovers get stored privately on the Monero chain again.

nostr:nevent1qqsf6xsyjkjgwgw8pnyx8xj0t4nlpq9f252ae6q6pm77hsegr7kwp6qpzpmhxue69uhkummnw3ezumt0d5hsygpaq0znvzzptvwhrrrhsmhpp0d5ueaua5ezql3j3q8wnezrqxseaspsgqqqqqqs79fhjt

this

goatmeal 1y ago

I think I figured it out. bitcoin maxis have reached the point where they think it's a good idea to make bitcoin as retard proof as possible, even if it means stripping off almost all the benefits, so that they can get more people to buy bitcoin. the privacy thing is just an excuse to sell ruggable bitcoin to unsuspecting idiots. bitcoin maxis just want more people to buy bitcoin after they do and they don't care what it takes to make that happen.