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Just set up a thought experiment where those things aren't in play; it's not that hard. I dunno, uh..: Two parents with three kids, both parents have bad genetic luck (not the brightest bulbs in the box) and a sordid past leaving them very poorly educated and starting off (at the moment they would receive your advice) with a combined debt of $150,000, no assets and no savings. they both work full time at low-paying jobs, one of them has a part time evening job, and this all just barely pays the interest on their debt - some months it doesn't even do that. Hell, make the mother pregnant again, too, why not? They both have no family and any distant friends of theirs have equal or worse problems.

- schooling in off hours: "what off hours?!"

- cheaper COL region: we're already in a dirt-poor area; besides, moving costs are non-zero and the budget is already negative

- cheaper home: see above; with another kid on the way, if anything we need a _larger_ home! two of the kids already share a bedroom

- sell cars: we have one car (one parent takes the bus) and it's an old money pit, not an expensive car

if you think these are outlandish premises, you're not in touch with other peoples' reality.

I think the best you could do for the above scenario is to say, "I'm sorry, Mr. and Mrs. Smith, my advice actually won't work out for you. BUT if you try to follow it anyway - even knowing it's infeasible - you'll feel fulfilled and proud just to be trying, fruitlessly. at least you can always believe you'll go to heaven when this disappointing life is over!"

I'm just trying to make you see that some people will always be left behind in the world as it is today, and it's more respectful to them and honest to yourself to admit this and allow that unfortunate fact to live in your heart as motivation to help make a better world with eyes open.

Currency of Distrust 1mo ago

You’re pointing out an extreme exception to the rule, but ok dude. You’re drawing up this scenario as if there is a significant portion of people in a completely hopeless situation and I emphatically disagree.

If you ever watch Dave Ramsey take calls from people that are in bad financial situations, there is almost always a way out. Almost always there is somewhere to cut. Almost always there are steps that you can take. Maybe it’ll take years, but it’s possible.

But you’ve thoroughly convinced yourself that there is a sizable portion of the population who can’t get out of their bad situation and that they should just give up. That’s a sad way to see people.

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vinney...axkl 1mo ago

Widen the net beyond this country and "extreme exception to the rule" becomes a laughable claim.

...and you think the call screeners for Dave Ramsey let calls through for whom Dave won't be able to provide advice and look smart? Not to mention that the people who are in a hopeless situation and likely lack all motivation are not calling Mr. Ramsey up.

And remind me, does the Dave Ramsey show - apparently an important global financial indicator and not just a US mainstream media psyop - get broadcast to 3rd world countries?

But I digress. It seems like you're willing to accept that there **are** exceptions to the rule, but don't necessarily agree that those families exist in number enough to warrant you paying them any mind.

If you agree that your advice framework has "sorry man, you're shit out of luck, here's to hoping you have a better accident of birth next time" to say to them, then we actually don't have a disagreement. that's all i've been trying to point out.

Currency of Distrust 1mo ago

No dude, my framework does not include "You're out of luck and there's nothing you can do to improve it". That's a loser mindset and Im kinda done arguing that. Saying that to someone is denying their agency, flat out.

Bringing a third world argument is ridiculous. Obviously, I'm not giving advice to them.

Feel what you want about Dave Ramsey, but the reality is people in America and the first world are generally awful at managing money and are usually to blame for their own financial problems. And even if they aren't to blame, believe it or not, there are still options.

vinney...axkl 1mo ago

And like I said in the note you're responding to: I don't think they should give up. I think it's still worth living your life as if you could succeed. But I think it's important to be honest with people, also. And to not speak in ridiculous absolutes like "Women should raise the kids, single-income men should provide for them - everyone CAN do this, if they choose not to they're lazy or have their priorities screwed up".