I think individualism has dramaitically improved the human condition & was likely the real heart of Christianity in the first place. An atheist individualist is probably a better member of society than most religious people have been for most of human history. Belief in "God" doesn't magically make people good. Many just imagine that their "God" has granted them every psychopathic indulgence that crosses their mind, like the Israeli soldiers raping Palestinians, because they are "the chosen people" who can do whatever they want. But the athiest tendency to mindlessly worship the state produces equally horrifying conditions. And quite often the state & religious authorities have been one & the same.
Discussion
Humans have a weird bias toward the past. We don’t remember things accurately and history isn’t well studied. People often say the world is going to shit and that things were better “before.” Were they really? This is sometimes called seeing the world through rose colored glasses. Religious people seem to romanticize the past more for some reason. I think it’s because they don’t truly understand history. Not that there is anything wrong with believing in god but don’t act like the dark ages were a civilization of advancement. Don’t act like the religious crusades and other wars never happened. Don’t act like religion is all peace and love. And yeah yeah I know someone will say that the books are peaceful and it’s only human corruption that leads to these evils. But isn’t that more reason to value individualism over collectivism? The nature of religion leads to centralized power. The Protestant movement was literally an attempt to decentralize Christianity. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result. It was only after Christians disobeyed the church that humanity took another step forward. Blasphemy! The printing press literally advanced humanity because it undermined religion! The greatest period of human flourishing, the gold standard, happened after the separation of church and state. Most people in the world still believe in religion so claiming that “atheism” failed assumes that the world is mostly atheist. It is not. And because no religion has objective evidence to support its claims, there can NEVER be any reconciliation or agreement amongst different religions. There will always be conflict between religions.
And yes lest not we forget slave owners justifying slavery to slavers using the Bible was of course good for the slaves
Or the murder of children and raping of women.
Anti-theism is just as much of a “religion” as any kind of statist Christianity or Islam or anything else. All of it can and has been used to commit atrocities.
None of this changes what Jesus taught us and the wisdom that is contained in his teaching.
God’s natural law is the basis for all human thought and advancement, from Plato’s cave to Christ’s Gospel, to the Magna Carta, to the declaration of independence, these teachings have built upon the foundation for Human Liberty.
Correct, humans tend to do horrible shit when they get into large groups. We’re tribal unfortunately. You seem to have disproven your own statement though.
Jesus taught you personally? Because he never taught me anything. I never met the guy.
Can you define God’s natural law?
Well yes it’s written in Plato, the Gospel, Magna Carta, etc-
Basically it is this:
Treat others the way you want to be treated.
That’s not a law. That’s more of a life philosophy. Which the Bible violates when it commands murder.
“Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.” (Numbers 31: 17-18)
that is the jewish torah. when I talk about the bible I am talking about the gospel of Christ, which is what Jesus said and confirmed by the spirit today.
Is Jesus not the same god that authored the Torah?
You quoted it for yourself, there is obviously something very different in that Numbers verse, compared to Jesus's teaching which is not to murder under any circumstances.
Matthew26:52 “Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.
Okay but it’s the same god right? Why did god just suddenly stop being violent?
I don't know man, Jesus said that he is the only way to salvation so his teaching is what I personally focus on.
I am trying to write in the other thread, the helpful thing here is to determine the best way to get rid of the power of the State, which I think we agree on as bitcoiners.
Muhammad said the same thing. So did Moses and Noah and all the others. Why believe Jesus? What makes Jesus right and everyone else wrong? The author of the Torah is the same as the author of the New Testament. That means Jesus, who you believe is god, wrote that verse from numbers. That means he violated the “treat others the way you want to be treated.”
I agree that we both want to get rid of the power of the state.
I believe Jesus is the Son of God (God the Trinity: Father, Son, Holy Spirit) because it has been shown to me in my life that it is true.
Lots of teachings from human history, and we can learn from all of them in my opinion.
The "correct" ones are the ones that help us follow natural law:
do not murder
do not steal
treat others justly, etc.
Respect. Follow whatever God you want but treat people kindly. 💜
I believed in Jesus is the Son of God (God the Trinity: Father, Son, Holy Spirit) because it has been shown to me in my life that it is true.
Lots of teachings from human history, and we can learn from all of them in my opinion.
The "correct" ones are the ones that help us follow natural law:
do not murder
do not steal
treat others justly, etc.
Of course you are free to believe what you want. But you haven’t been able to provide any hard evidence for why you believe this. And you haven’t been able to explain the contradictions I pointed out. We can agree to disagree but I hope you can at least understand why op called it an imaginary abstraction now.
the fucking tyranny of the state that is currently ruling over us is not imaginary.
The post originally by Jeff was explaining the role in the human psyche of the Higher Power and how it can be twisted into acceptance of the tyranny
The state IS imaginary. It’s not a physical entity. It’s a mental conception that does not exist. You can’t see, touch, smell, hear, or taste the state. The state cannot think. It cannot speak. It cannot feel. What you refer to as the state is just a group of violent individuals using violence to control and extort people. When a cop murders someone, they say im just doing my job that the state requires me to do. When they killed those young boys and non virgin women from the numbers verse, they said I’m just fulfilling the commandments of god. God and the state have no physical existence in our world. They are imaginary.
The murder and violence and slavery and genocide is real so what causes it is real and must be defeated somehow.
The way to stop the violence, slavery, & genocide in the name of imaginary things is to get people to realize they aren't real. When people realize they are resposible for their own actions they will think twice.
I fundamentally disagree with this approach.
The STATE is real.
It exists as a psychological/spiritual condition of human slaves causing them to disregard natural law- rationalizing war, taxes, abuse, etc.
You are saying you will “exorcise” this “demon” by convincing the people it doesn’t exist?
That will not work, at least in the area of the work I am in.
“It exists as a psychological/spiritual condition”
That makes it imaginary. It has no existence in the physical realm.
Tell that to the Swat team when they are breaking down your front door.
You are the one that said the state exists psychologically and spiritually. Not me lmao
How are you going to help dismantle/decommission the state if you don’t even know what it is?
Sir, you said the state exists psychologically and spiritually. How can you dismantle a psychological/spiritual phenomenon?
By following Christ and using the Holy Spirit to cast it back into hell where it belongs.
Have you not had anyone in your family with a drug addiction or alcoholism who got sober. It is similar to that.
So basically you’re saying pray harder. But countless people have been praying to have these problems fixed and nothing ever magically fixed itself. It’s people that fix it.
Telling people that the sun god they want to sacrifice you to isn't real might not stop them from killing you either, but it doesn't make their sun god real.
You are just implying that might makes right. But truth has nothing to do with who has the greater numbers & who can kill who.
What language is this? I said it makes it REAL- *not* right.
I’m sorry I guess I thought you wanted to fix the problem.
I will try one more time:
Do you think it would be better to tell the Mayan priests that the Sun doesn’t exist?
Or would you tell them the truth? -That the Sun does not demand human sacrifice.
In my definition, mental illness or conditions like alcoholism for example ARE REAL. Statism is another mental illness. Which is real. Atheism is another IMO.
God is real and you will stand before him one day very soon, all our lives are but dust in the wind.
It’s up to you if you will have Christ vouching for you on that day or not.
