Replying to Avatar BITLEAF

Been kicking around this idea for a while to create a desktop p2p app replicating the lightning-poker.com site experience (with a few upgrades like private tables, optional names etc). I’ve got most of it mapped in my head, plenty of hurdles but it feels solvable.

Basic vision: a desktop app using p2p bittorrent style swarms to sync the game state. Provable fair shuffling using commit-reveal hash functions. Could even experiment integrating ecash to avoid a need for a lightning node to take deposits. Ecash tokens represented as chips immediately change ownership with each hand, removing any party holding funds during the game.

It’s a fun thought experiment but don’t hold back, tell me what I’m missing. Maybe I can refine this into a project worth pursuing.

#p2p #poker #lightning #ecash #cashu

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P.S lightning-poker team you’ve done great running this site for years. I mean no offense or ill will while exploring this idea

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Yes, the problems to solve IMO are anonymity for players (so that sharing player history notes doesn't give an advantage), truly random shuffling(?), and collusion. However, the way I've been thinking, is that unless we have entire rooms that are provably SCIF's, like in every city, these are the real casualties of AI and technology. Games like this just aren't possible to make fair anymore. Screensharing, VR goggles, infinite scams possible with closed source, asymmetrical access to realtime calculations, earbuds/coaching, etc. The game was invented when none of this existed. Therefore, board games will be more what they once were, ways to socialize with trusted peers and low stakes simulations of real world incentive change / pressure / leverage / strategy / dynamics within shared ruleset / game theory etc etc. So we lose the provably fair competition but refocus on the per-living-room benefits of games with friends.

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good points

To be real, these games were never "fair" they were just unknowns back then. The calculations are not difficult, certainly not as deep as chess bots we are talking percentage risk tolerance and psychology dynamics. AI only seems to be better than those who play too loose. Knowing that you are drawing dead is a much bigger skill gap than people think.

Good stuff that hasn’t even crossed my mind yet. The shuffling component is difficult but seems solvable, however other aspects of cheating like simple player collusion I have no solution for yet.

Currently best I can imagine is a “good faith” game with people you know. Private invite only tables can help but if playing with randoms there would need to be other solutions

Yes. I have been thinking that the venue is the entire experience, you walk in and everything is there, provably ungamable. But it could be that a dedicated device could eliminate some, though not all, of the potential vulnerability of playing with strangers. Matching based on mutual interest, provable reputation without being tied to identity two other ways. Or the other way, radical transparency, each individual livestreams themselves in some perpetualtimestamproving stream paradigm. Even so ultimately a local good faith game seems a more viable and sustainable product than an ecosystem that allows and selects for questionable strategy.