Nostr Web Client

Been kicking around this idea for a while to create a desktop p2p app replicating the lightning-poker.com site experience (with a few upgrades like private tables, optional names etc). I’ve got most of it mapped in my head, plenty of hurdles but it feels solvable.

Basic vision: a desktop app using p2p bittorrent style swarms to sync the game state. Provable fair shuffling using commit-reveal hash functions. Could even experiment integrating ecash to avoid a need for a lightning node to take deposits. Ecash tokens represented as chips immediately change ownership with each hand, removing any party holding funds during the game.

It’s a fun thought experiment but don’t hold back, tell me what I’m missing. Maybe I can refine this into a project worth pursuing.

#p2p #poker #lightning #ecash #cashu

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P.S lightning-poker team you’ve done great running this site for years. I mean no offense or ill will while exploring this idea

https://cdn.nostrcheck.me/dbc64e036069817292b62e3586d60f56f79cdcb4d9c8d25985cf07c6d4b85823/aff3919d9aa658ba252bac47f10aa2aa57c0f89569b274781b2ec55ffd8639e6.webp

https://cdn.nostrcheck.me/dbc64e036069817292b62e3586d60f56f79cdcb4d9c8d25985cf07c6d4b85823/08a31eb4da3e10ff91339754306934343479fa2a9152043aa88db8e80891a7f4.webp

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Discussion

jb55 5mo ago

we definitely need this. ecash would be great for poker chips.

BITLEAF 4mo ago

I thought the same, sometimes you have an idea that just feels right

:P 5mo ago

Let’s make it happen! We can borrow some ideas from swc poker site too

BITLEAF 4mo ago

Planning to set aside some time this week to see what I can figure out. Trying to manage expectations though, I’m no a code expert so I’ll need others to contribute and/or it will be highly vibe coded

TheGrinder 4mo ago

We could just get the software from enterra poker. I was running cyberdeck poker ~2015 ahead of it's time.

https://enterra-poker.com/

BITLEAF 4mo ago

Beautiful, I had my fingers crossed something like this was out there. Pretty complete front end we’d only need minor changes

TheGrinder 4mo ago

I don't know if they're still running their Bitcoin poker network. If so, you can probably get a skin on the network for cheap. Alternatively you can get the entire software for a standalone deployment. Both come with a backend. I spent a lot of time 10 years ago to make their software somewhat decent.

TheGrinder 4mo ago

I meant to say, spent a lot of time working with them to make the software somewhat decent.

JackTheMimic 5mo ago

I mean techincally the mint would be holding the funds but beside the ecash specific issue I have, that looks pretty solid. Things I am thinking about:

What are some fail-state mitigations?

- What if a player disconnects mid-hand and tries to reconnect, what kind of hand timer will be implemented?

- What happens when a player busts, do they get removed from the seat or do they have a chance to buy in from their seat?

Are there auto action toggles? (Check/fold, call current bet, call any, fold) to make hands not wait on afk players.

Big blind avoidance protections? Not allow a player to "sit out" before their turn to be big blind the "sit in" afterwards in high player games.

:P 4mo ago

Swc site had some good rules for when a player:

♦️times out - gave users an extra time bar before forcing user to “sit out” and 3 hands to reconnect before booting off the table

♦️posting big blinds when joining the table from in front of the button.

♦️check/fold/call actions while waiting to act

♦️auto buy back in after busting out. With a couple hand grace period to buy back in

♦️if using ecash I would recommend that every table has its own mint and is run by the table owner.

YODL 4mo ago

I always think of this when you mention site

BITLEAF 4mo ago

This is why I need you guys, lots of UX stuff I haven’t considered. The examples puzzl laid out would work pretty well, feel like most UI decisions we can steal.

The ecash aspect is a trade off and I see the merit in both paths. If we stick with lightning its established and more reliable to integrate at this time, but the node runner would be labeled as the “host” and face legal risk for running an unlicensed gambling operation. The big benefit with ecash being we have a better chance of structuring in a way that no individual has to take on that burden

ThatWhichisNotSeen 5mo ago

Would play 🤙

cloud fodder 4mo ago

When I went shopping github for holdem repos, this was one that stuck out.. The "Mental" implementation.

https://github.com/predatorray/mental-texas-holdem

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_poker

JBN 4mo ago

His toolkit repo is also good info https://github.com/predatorray/mental-poker-toolkit

jb55 4mo ago

whoa!

BITLEAF 4mo ago

This is impressive, lot of it is over my head but looking into more detail

JBN 4mo ago

Yes, the problems to solve IMO are anonymity for players (so that sharing player history notes doesn't give an advantage), truly random shuffling(?), and collusion. However, the way I've been thinking, is that unless we have entire rooms that are provably SCIF's, like in every city, these are the real casualties of AI and technology. Games like this just aren't possible to make fair anymore. Screensharing, VR goggles, infinite scams possible with closed source, asymmetrical access to realtime calculations, earbuds/coaching, etc. The game was invented when none of this existed. Therefore, board games will be more what they once were, ways to socialize with trusted peers and low stakes simulations of real world incentive change / pressure / leverage / strategy / dynamics within shared ruleset / game theory etc etc. So we lose the provably fair competition but refocus on the per-living-room benefits of games with friends.

jb55 4mo ago

good points

JackTheMimic 4mo ago

To be real, these games were never "fair" they were just unknowns back then. The calculations are not difficult, certainly not as deep as chess bots we are talking percentage risk tolerance and psychology dynamics. AI only seems to be better than those who play too loose. Knowing that you are drawing dead is a much bigger skill gap than people think.

BITLEAF 4mo ago

Good stuff that hasn’t even crossed my mind yet. The shuffling component is difficult but seems solvable, however other aspects of cheating like simple player collusion I have no solution for yet.

Currently best I can imagine is a “good faith” game with people you know. Private invite only tables can help but if playing with randoms there would need to be other solutions

JBN 4mo ago

Yes. I have been thinking that the venue is the entire experience, you walk in and everything is there, provably ungamable. But it could be that a dedicated device could eliminate some, though not all, of the potential vulnerability of playing with strangers. Matching based on mutual interest, provable reputation without being tied to identity two other ways. Or the other way, radical transparency, each individual livestreams themselves in some perpetualtimestamproving stream paradigm. Even so ultimately a local good faith game seems a more viable and sustainable product than an ecosystem that allows and selects for questionable strategy.

archjourney 4mo ago

let's do it! you, because I have almost no idea about programming 🤗

https://v.nostr.build/BuR6yPkaHlNTNTWX.mp4

archjourney 4mo ago

need the voice of nostr:nprofile1qqsdvckpplxm9wvsevfln6f573ucmx7snyvhn5p64gzjejmy0rgrntcprfmhxue69uhkzun59ehx7um5wfn8yetpddejucm0d5hszxnhwden5te0v4kxjar9wvhxummnw3exzarf9ehhyee0qy2hwumn8ghj7un9d3shjtnyv9kh2uewd9hj7s6x74r saying "thaaaat's poker" 😁

Pickle Dan 🥒 4mo ago

I will record catchphrases. It will be my contribution for this great project!

archjourney 4mo ago

this would be 😂. Imagine loosing a good hand or big pot and the sounds comes.

.. "thaaaat's poker"...

Your bigger contribution of course, after your chips contribution 😁🧡💜🫂

If you need some icons or images there for anything, it would be my honour 😜

BITLEAF 4mo ago

We can make you the poker version of the halo multiplayer voice

Pickle Dan 🥒 4mo ago

You're quite the salesman!

BITLEAF 4mo ago

😂 definitely have more experience there than with code

archjourney 4mo ago

😁 https://cdn.nostrcheck.me/05e4649832dfb8d1bfa81ea7cbf1c92c4f1cd5052bfc8d5465ba744aa6fa5eb8/0b9db7301622095647ba8bf46909d030ed75bbfbf9b264a4adaaa92b62b9838b.webp

calle 4mo ago

Man I would love to see a poker game built with ecash. Would love to assist if I can. It'd be a perfect use case.

BITLEAF 4mo ago

Absolutely! I can admit a lot of this is over my head, I’m great at mapping out ideas but when it comes time to build I’m not the best choice.

I’m going to continue exploring the concept, but I have already thought of a question for you.

At this point are we able to build this in a way that the players at a table wouldn’t all have to be using the same mint? Another workable idea was table specific mints if we needed all players on one mint, but I have a passing knowledge of ecash so I’m unsure

archjourney 4mo ago

calle 4mo ago

Ecash as digital casino chips

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wavy. 4mo ago

There are some open source poker gaming pieces that could help build quickly on github… mainly re random cards etc.. i also agree i would be interested in this —

BITLEAF 4mo ago

Yeah surprised me with this much interest so I’m going to keep exploring

wavy. 4mo ago

I dont have the time currently but it was one my high priority list…. Can you explain the ecash vs lightning issue etc ? Im curious about that

BITLEAF 4mo ago

Sure! This is the aspect I’ve spent the most time thinking on.

Existing games with lightning integration work very well and they are reliable, but it requires some central entity running a lightning node to handle deposits, escrow, and withdrawals when the game is over. The big problem with this is legally that entity is considered the “host” effectively running in an unlicensed gambling operation. I set out with a goal of decentralizing further than that so no single person would be liable. Also this would remove a need for a rake of the game, as far as I’m concerned it could run on donations.

Ecash offers some unique possibilities. Tokens can be transferred through any medium even offline. So I was envisioning a system where when you deposit your ecash tokens into the app, you receive chips and sit down to play. In the background your ecash tokens didn’t really go anywhere. They’re just represented as chips and then are transferred between seats as the game is played.

If this works out the way I imagine, there is no central repository holding funds for the game. The tokens are temporarily stored within the game while you play and then you can take them when you’re done or even leave them in your game wallet for next time

JBN 4mo ago

What if there's no new hand dealt until everyone settles?

BITLEAF 4mo ago

I could probably explain it better, but in my head I’m picturing the ecash being “settled” upon the end of each hand. The system can automatically transfer the ecash to the winning seat so by the time the next hand starts all funds are technically settled, allowing players to quickly come and go and no losing player can runoff with funds

wavy. 4mo ago

Thanks for taking the time to write this — yes its kinda how I envisioned the issues of a central stakeholder. Buying chips at the register seems to be the way.

TheGrinder 4mo ago

Here is an idea from many years ago. Maybe you can incorporate some of that into your plans.

https://cdn.satellite.earth/2903ceedf2ec2bc71d0cfa9a6c6058dd07c384b899299438bb56af4d6d74f7cb.pdf