i was today years old when i learned Wavlake is a walled garden, the only music displayed on there is the music that gets uploaded through them..
wtf dude thats like if i was to post this note right now on client *x* a true nostr client
but youβre using client *y* a centralized app that only reads notes created inside the client, youβll never see my note from client *x*
Lmao yeah. People have been bitching about this for a while and its why ill never use them.
Wish I wouldβve known earlier wtf man
Yep.
Tracks uploaded to wavlake show up everywhere in the valueverse and all v4v PC2.0 apps but only tracks uploaded directly to wavlake will show up in wavlake
Thatβs fuckin wild bro
more artists and fans should know about this
We've been saying it for years. We're called Jihadist, buzz-kills, The Sovereigns, Hobby-ist, etc.
nostr:npub1yvscx9vrmpcmwcmydrm8lauqdpngum4ne8xmkgc2d4rcaxrx7tkswdwzdu has been saying this for a long time
never reached me, guess itβs being suppressed??
Obsfucatestr
I've heard it, loud and clear. I could feel the Texas freedom vibe from the podcasting 1 world to 2.0., former music indusry folks learning about bitcoin, and constructive discussion like this.
I learned v4v from all those great music shows and nostr:nprofile1qqsx8zd7vjg70d5na8ek3m8g3lx3ghc8cp5d9sdm4epy0wd4aape6vspz4mhxue69uhk2er9dchxummnw3ezumrpdejqzymhwden5te0dejhwueww468smewdahx2qgdwaehxw309ahx7uewd3hkcnka9q2, with podverse, so yeah as long as everyone keeps talking about it from rants to friendly reminders, it gets out. Wavlake held my hand in this, and it feels like it's own subnetwork or channel in the way that they also want to curate a/their culture. Crossing from aggregation to curation.
So yeah, let's all DIY but there's a billions of normies that will come for the freedom sats if it's easy, and learn from us along the way.
This is why I've been saying for a very long time it's better to just upload music in regular kind 1 posts
Like I did with this grateful dead edit for Digit (who is alive) https://m.primal.net/MjoN.webm
Isnβt that the same on all music platforms? I would have thought yes but I could be wrong
So traditionally you go through a distributor like distro kid or unitedmasters and select all the platforms you want to distribute your music to and they do it on your behalf
Wavlake letβs you distribute your music with them for 10% split and itβll show up on every platform that taps into rss
But the problem is when you distribute your music outside of Wavlake, itβll show up everywhere else that taps into rss but not them, so really theyβre a walled garden where the only music on there is the music uploaded through them
so really the opposite of freedom and decentralization
If you distribute through wavlake its available through wavlake and rss but not if you distribute through somwwhere else. Ok got it. So with 10% it charges way less than apple or spotify, but the walled garden part is not the best.
I used to put stuff on soundcloud but moved to wavlake since they went the constant ads route and memberships
You can do 0% on your own and show up EVERYWHERE else except for Wavlake
Doesnt spotify, for example, take most of the money you make on a track? Or thats a separate thing?
Spotify pays you $0.003 per stream
Others pay differently but similar
Right. What Iβm wondering is how much money Spotify makes per stream ie is the .003 equivalent to the 10% Wavlake takes
If someone zaps a track on Wavlake 10000 sats, Wavlake takes 1000 sats. Seems like I would need a lot of streams to get to that. But I understand your point about the walled garden
I meant β what Spotify makes on a stream, is it equivalent to the 10% Wavlake takesβ
Apples to oranges. Spotify makes money by using your content (as an artist) to sell subscriptions and they kick the artist a $0.003 "commission" on the artists own IP.
The wavlake model takes a 10% split which is more akin to what happens with the middlemen in the existing industry taking a cut of profits. Not as egregious as other middlemen though. It all varies but traditionally management will take 15%, distro takes 20%, and the label takes 25% leaving the artist with only 40% before any expenses...
Thatβs exactly my point though. Wavlake is a walled garden so thatβs not the best. Still a better deal than Spotify or similar platform.
Agreed, its better than Spotify but its also not as good as using self-hosted solutions.
For example, RSSBlue.com (hosting) takes a 2% split.
When you use rssblue, where does the song show up? Spotify and similar platforms? Is there other places where it shows up and you get paid?
It shows up everywhere in the valueverse except wavlake.
Thatβs why Iβm asking. I have no idea what the value verse represents. Is it only platforms that pay roughly .003 per stream? Are some places more generous?
Spotify pays 0.003 per stream. Other legacy music platforms (apple music, pandora, etc) have their own payout structures. None of them pay very much. You're basically renting your content to them for fractions of pennies while they get filthy rich off of your PoW.
Valueverse refers to tracks uploaded through an rss feed, more specifically the ones set up on an rss feed which allows boosting/zapping (aka podcasting 2.0).
Generally, the valueverse embodies much of the FOSS ethics that we hold important in nostr and bitcoin.
Thanks for the explanation. Right now Iβm putting my stuff on Wavlake, where do I put it if I want to be on the valueverse? Just sign up to rssblue?
There's lots of options! I use rssblue which does charge $5 a month but they make it easy to build the rss feed. There are other providers out there - I'll let the podcast ppl give suggestions on alternatives nostr:npub19ha7tju4teqp3dmwv4p28wrcy9zd6h6hxkg5mwvjrlfycweazpkse2q0fa nostr:npub177fz5zkm87jdmf0we2nz7mm7uc2e7l64uzqrv6rvdrsg8qkrg7yqx0aaq7 nostr:npub1yvgrrzf4dnmu30qfhw95x87ruu0g2kpv3a64h8hpvqsre8qeuspsgd6pv9 nostr:npub1yvscx9vrmpcmwcmydrm8lauqdpngum4ne8xmkgc2d4rcaxrx7tkswdwzdu
If you host your own website you can just upload the file yourself, grab an rss template, and point the tag towards where it was uploaded. That's the free DIY solution.
When you self host, what makes the podcasting 2.0 apps find it? Just setting up the rss template?
Add it to the Podcast Index which Wavlake does do. That's why Wavlake music shows up in Fountain, LNBeats and other podcasting 2.0 app.
You add your feed URL here:
Dude, if you're on Wavlake, you're in the Valueverseβ’. If you like Wavlake, use Wavlake. They make it easy, and they make all the music on Wavlake available in any podcast player. However, their player only plays Wavlake music, it doesn't allow you to play non-Wavlake music on it, so if someone decided they want to host their music on RSS Blue or self host it, it's available in all the podcast apps, but it's not available on Wavlake. Wavlake is a check valve, their music can go out, but nobody else's music can come in. You decide if that's the sort of ecosystem you want to support.
π€
nostr:nprofile1qqsd0kqsnmjrv47wvpt2mfr9xqrthdjp7v09p6zjgd5pcfey2puprmqpzemhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuurjd9kkzmpwdejhgqfrwaehxw309aex2mrp0ykhvetjd9nxjety9ejx2umrdphk7mrfdenjuatnqyt8wumn8ghj7mn0wd68ytnwdahkuetn9e3k7mg0jpfq2 will fix this soonly
need that patch π₯
You already have it. Host your own damn mp3s and RSS file on your own site. Here's a tool, that's 100% v4v, meaning you get to choose the split, all the way down to 0%. It builds the RSS for you. All you have to do is paste the links to your artwork and mp3 files. Host that shit on a blossom server, put the feed on github, good to go, doesn't cost a dime. Distributing your music shouldn't cost you 10%.
Any YouTube tutorials on this? step by step? Iβd happily share it
.
Not Pootube turorials but there is a video nostr:nprofile1qqsr5qnsn6medetj3vexljqqvy99gfdrgsp7hs9f52kdvrryz6gwkrsxg6l7w put together with frankiepaint going over how to use nostr:nprofile1qqszxyp33y6kea7ghsymhz6rrlp7w859tqkg7a2mnmskqgpunsv7gqcx9qgdn's MusicSideProject to self host your music / create a DeMu RSS feed and it's available on every Podcasting 2.0 app with a video (search Thunder Road Media #0001 on Fountain or wherever you wanna listen/watch)
Hell yeah, decentralized tutorial videos, TTT style. I didn't ask for it, one of the members of the community saw a need and filled it. That's the time and talent part of the Time, Talent, Treasure model.
Iβd love to learn how to do the blossom server thing and put the feed on GitHub it sounds great
Check out how Brrreadfan does it. He hosts everything on Github: https://github.com/Brrreadfan/brrreadfan.github.io
I would still recommend a separate server like blossom or satellite in case GitHub gets annoyed with hosting mp3s instead of code.
And he's got one of my favorite bitcoin songs ever, die die my dollar π
Thanks for this discussion, like anything that abstracts the tech for noobs, there are tradeoffs. Keep letting people know that it's all within reach and easy to self host w/o being a dev.
I'll get there, we'll get there
nostr:nprofile1qqspwt9j9mue6pmqg8kly4jvxmmsr95rvah3ek4swf5vqjxvw4y89ccpremhxue69uhkummnw3ez6ur4vgh8wetvd3hhyer9wghxuet59uq3wamnwvaz7tmwdaehgu3wdah8xct5wvhx7un89uq36amnwvaz7tmwdaehgu3dwfjkccte9emkcann9eehqctrv5hsu66q76 did this, hosting on Github
Maybe he can help?
I will personally hold your hand if you have an issue with putting your stuff up. nostr:npub1yvgrrzf4dnmu30qfhw95x87ruu0g2kpv3a64h8hpvqsre8qeuspsgd6pv9 made it super simple.
If you guys do this, turn on a camera and record it. It doesn't have to be anything slick. It shows me how actual users think so I can make the process more intuitive, it gives a tutorial for others to follow, and we're doing it. It's not us waiting for a company to give us the tools to take back control of our creativity, it's us coming together and doing it ourselves. v4v isn't about the money, it's about the community. Building our own shit together is way more valuable, let's never forget that.
nostr:nprofile1qqs2tmjyw452ydezymtywqf625j3atra6datgzqy55fp5c7w9jn4gqgpzpmhxue69uhkummnw3ezumt0d5hsz9mhwden5te0wfjkccte9ehx7um5wghxyctwvshsz9thwden5te0wfjkccte9ejxzmt4wvhxjme0s8pkkr
nostr:nprofile1qqspw5udc2nzw6wsj3plrrphe0343744h0ucz9e4g248chl3w8kh03qppamhxue69uhkumewwd68ytnrwgqs6amnwvaz7tmwdaejumr0dsq3vamnwvaz7tmjv4kxz7fwdehhxtnnda3kjctvwwh27j
dope π₯
π
Here's a feed I made for my buddy's band. It cost me 5000 sats, and that was a few years ago, so maybe $3. I think I have 10 years of hosting on it from satellite.earth. Check the links to the mp3 and image, you'll see it's all hosted on satellite.earth. If you plan on ever changing the feed, it needs to be at an address where the file contents can change without changing the file name, so a Blossom server may not be the best solution... yet. That's why I hosted the actual RSS on github, for free.
Image, mp3, RSS feed, it's all you need. Super easy.
https://cdn.satellite.earth/5e6a56f4a6e07eb6d7653cb84ae4c9493be4dea04e6ea9fb1c547816f4e294bc.mp3
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/thebells1111/bible-song-band/refs/heads/main/feed.xml
Fuck it, I made a thing. It's unpolished, it's published on satellite.earth. You can host your own music in less than 15 minutes. Try it out.
https://cdn.satellite.earth/509dfaf56166ca159a05b801383f6014f57f88f1bb600b8df45f02d89cd0903a.mp4
Here it is in the Podcast Index
This is freaking awesome dudeee!! Fuck yeah!!
Here it is on podcast index
https://podcastindex.org/podcast/7343106
Fountain
https://fountain.fm/album/Od7e1f8U5zXElOIyZeAy
LNBeats
Castamatic
Nostr Test - Louisian - Duke Ellington https://castamatic.com/+VyN9yxNe/
Podverse
https://podverse.fm/podcast/vum3bUJJXf
Curiocaster
https://curiocaster.com/podcast/pi7343106/37558741969#t=2,181
Episodes.fm
Our point is that you can be in control of your art if you want to. If you can't do what nostr:npub1yvgrrzf4dnmu30qfhw95x87ruu0g2kpv3a64h8hpvqsre8qeuspsgd6pv9 did in the video about and host everything yourself then we have lost the point in all of this.
πππ
And it's open source. Contribute, fork it, make it your own. I don't care. I just want you to get your music out there.
I'll let you know
I'm almost certain I warned you of this years ago π
If youβre on Damus you can click on our conversations, I just went through it and didnβt see it /: but i have heard of these tools before but im very bad with tech so need a guide or step by step tutorial but yeah nobody ever told me it was a walled garden
It may have been lost to time in the relay sauce
bout to do a show right now but I'd be happy to help you get set up sometime if we both can find a good time to get together on it π§‘
I think you might enjoy this rap i released on the subject
https://lnbeats.com/album/a71b097b-4cf0-5e74-b6a9-1271373bb396
Will do soon as I get home!
and I thought this was obvious since links aren't nostr events.
Wavlake is a host provider and V4V Nostr client. They are a walled garden by choice. Walls keep your music in, protected, but it also keeps the rent seekers out who would otherwise profit from your work.
If I was a musician and didnβt want my music getting distributed everywhere for free, such as Spotify, Apple, etc I would put my music there.
There is nothing stopping a musician from distributing everywhere as well. It just comes down to whether you prefer a exclusiveness or not.
Btw - this is the difference between putting your music on Wavlake and Fountain in essence.
Surprised you didnβt knowβ¦ Just my two sats. π
It didnβt see it anywhere on their site
If it did I wouldβve never used it thatβs crazy to hide centralization as exclusiveness
nostr:npub1tvqc82mv8cezhax5r34n4muc2c4pgjz8kaye2smj032nngg52clq0rkrq4 The wavelake walls dont keep your music in, it keeps other music out. Wavlake still publishes to an rss feed which is accessible publicly and the tracks can be downloaded.
The entire reason rss distribution makes sense is it allows for the freedom of wide distribution. Walled gardens goes against the ethos.
Its their platform so they can do what they want. But that should be transparent and users and artists should know what's happening.
To podcasting 2.0 rss correct. Not regular rss?
Iβm enjoying this discussion and learning
Its all rss. The 2.0 piece of it are the specific tags that enables the zap/boost. Aka TimeValueSplits
An rss feed is basically a huge text file. Within that text file it has tags that references things like where the audio file or album art is saved. For it to be PC2.0 compliant, it would need tags referencing the splits (like an lnaddress or node address)
Ok. Little fuzzy in the description.
Yep - what they say there is true. They just dont mention that they're not full participants in the open protocol like everyone else.
Tracks on an rss feed ultimately get pushed to the podcast index. This index represents all the valueverse content (and then some). Apps will pull from this index, referencing the PC2.0 compliaent rss feeds that are compatible with your particular app, and deliver that content to you as a user.
Wavlake excludes everything but the feeds published through them whereas all other v4v apps dont discriminate as long as the feed is technically compatible.
Wavlake makes an RSS feeds and adds it to the Podcast Index for you that other apps like Fountain and LNBeats can use.
Here's the feed for Wait Destiny by Sara Jade.
https://www.wavlake.com/feed/699644a5-a5b4-4c2d-ad70-e90977e60c34
Here's the full thing. Let's see if this blows out my note π
"Wait Destiny" is an elevating Nu Disco track enriched with funk bass, transcendent soundscapes and dance appeal. Reimagined from it's 2020 debut on YouTube, Sara Jade has turned up the rhythmic heat with heavy hitting dance drums and is hailing the mothership with rich choral harmonies. Cleverly layered instrumentation gives the listener plenty of melodic ear candy to sink their teeth into on replay so that each listen feels fresh. ]]>
https://wavlake.com/sara-jade%3C/link%3E
"Wait Destiny" is an elevating Nu Disco track enriched with funk bass, transcendent soundscapes and dance appeal. Reimagined from it's 2020 debut on YouTube, Sara Jade has turned up the rhythmic heat with heavy hitting dance drums and is hailing the mothership with rich choral harmonies. Cleverly layered instrumentation gives the listener plenty of melodic ear candy to sink their teeth into on replay so that each listen feels fresh.
https://www.wavlake.com/album/699644a5-a5b4-4c2d-ad70-e90977e60c34%3C/link%3E
Ive seen bigger notes ππ«
It's easier to download music from Wavlake than it is Apple and Spotify. If it needs to be protected, is it published using value for value?
Sir, this is a Nostr. I don't know what it means over yonder where you come from, but over here, #V4V means it promotes Bitcoin. Therefore, Wavlake, fountain is V4V and Bandcamp is not. Simple as.
There's no need to "protect" V4V art because if it can be stolen, it ain't V4V. Art that's V4V is free and open.
It's also not V4V if there's a mandatory split of any kind.
Hilariously there is NO exclusivity for WL feeds because they can be played on ALL Podcasting 2.0 apps. But WL doesn't reciprocate, so DeMu artists aren't playable there...which is fine because self-hosted musicians don't want their sats custodied anyway. That's how rugpulls happen. π
Friendly reminder that Bandcamp only takes 15% (or 10% if you earn more than $5000USD) and offers WAYYY better protection than #Wavlake does. They also let you price your music as you please, while also letting the consumer choose to give you more if they want to.
Just my two Bitcoins.
Now please listen to this DeMu hit after The Wolf's The Wait is Over
thissong++
This is a very good thread for nostriches interested in v4v music and understanding the underlying plumbing.
Don't trust, verify.
Not all v4v apps are the same. Some more sovereign/FOSS than others. Its up to you to pick your flavor and everyone is welcome to pick what they like. But its important to understand what you're picking and the tradeoffs therein.
Didnβt realize this was the case. Iβve been pointing indie musicians get on decentralized networks that support v4v for months. Whoops π¬
Yeah, it's a shame. It would be good if there was a real nostr client for music. Wavlake is ok for discoverability, most other solutions arent great for discoverability. I want to see music that is popular from my friends playlists. A client that could do that well and was truely open would be great.
I need to start working on some playlists on fountain
Fuck Fountain playlists. Put it in an RSS feed like nostr:npub177fz5zkm87jdmf0we2nz7mm7uc2e7l64uzqrv6rvdrsg8qkrg7yqx0aaq7 did. All this in app exclusive stuff, and we already have the tools to make it so you own your own playlist, playable in any app. https://lnbeats.com/album/71556f97-94dc-5bf1-97e4-2dccf669d6c3
You mean truly open, like it's only a website, because the app stores are bullshit? Man, that would be cool.
I'll say the unsaid.
Check out: https://www.Lnbeats.com
Here's a small data point. For me personally, 10% is high but whatever. If people wanna play that that's their prerogative. 10% of 4655 feeds with a whole contingent of nostr influencers focused on funneling people thru their pipes...it just becomes noise to me. LNBeats is the only web app I use for music and it's solely because of the DeMu button.
I'm not sure I see Wavlake as a true walled garden - might be a bit harsh! Music uploaded to Wavlake is available in other v4v apps too. Its more like a short garden fence, where the inhabitants are free to talk to the neighbours, but the neighbours are not allowed to come for a BBQ because they're a bit weird.
I'm assuming one reason they have is to incentive artists to use their hosting and custodial wallet service, for which they make 10% on incoming artist boosts - AFAIK that's their biz model . Artists then get to be featured on a really well produced, well visited v4v music discovery platform.
Do I agree? Not sure. I like the idea of pure decentralised services too, but has anyone else done a better job than Wavlake yet at marketing and product delivery? Maybe if they do, Wavlake will be forced to re-think the garden fence.
All in all though, Wavlake is a great service and has introduced a shit-ton of artists to v4v.
Look forward to seeing some healthy competition!
Sir, this is a McDonalds.
Dude nostr:npub1ujt5f2qj0nave2m9t0s8jxlwufn8msc0hf62zlql0rd9247yuzwqtzmsud and I have been hosting a weekly podcast playing exclusively self-hosted music because those artists are getting ALIENATED AND IGNORED. Check it out sometime, there's a huge pool of talent in the DeMu sphere already and it has been growing organically. https://homegrownhits.xyz/
nostr:nprofile1qy2hwumn8ghj7etyv4hzumn0wd68ytnvv9hxgqgdwaehxw309ahx7uewd3hkcqpqyfg0d955c2jrj2080ew7pa4xrtj7x7s7umt28wh0zurwmxgpyj9sldm58v is a shitcoin
The irony of you making this critique from a primal.net address should be lost on no one.
If, you choose to pull your music there's one thing to keep in mind. The value time splits work by utilizing a GUID tag in your RSS feed. You'll want to preserve those GUIDs (aka copy them and put them in your feeds) so that any songs featured on a podcast can maintain its value time split to you. There's a feed level GUID and a GUID for each track. Go to https://podcastindex.org/search?q=ser%20sleepy&type=all click on one of your albums, view RSS feed, and do a search for a GUID to see what Im talking about.
I've only done it once, back when I pulled Rusty Gate from Wavlake and self hosted the feed. That was a couple years ago at this point so Im a little fuzzy on how the process works. I can ask tho if you want to do this.
My biggest, baddest, and boldest (this is not professional advice) is by far swing by the Zeronode IRC some time. It's where a lot of hobbyist podcasters and musicians congregate and Podcasting 2.0 (the actual show) hosts it chatroom there. A lot of the names in this thread are in there and it's way easier to talk stuff thru there, just ask nostr:npub1zm95kw87nf6gkesg76jedyfejt0u2zgx2fxgxywdxc9ugq3z4w2q4m092t
Here's the link: https://behindthesch3m3s.chat/
Use channels #greenroom #bowlafterbowl or #homegrownhits
Hope to see you there someday o7
I wholeheartedly endorse jumping in the #greenroom chat. The truly freedom principled music people in this space are gathered there.
That shit was confusing AF for me to get set up in the beginning but that's cause im a stoned retard and never used IRC before. But once I figured it out (and likely annoyed some ppl in the process) its a great resource & community of helpful assholes πβ€οΈ
You can just host your own feed!
Now better than ever with hand-holding step-by-step instructions included, free!
https://blob.satellite.earth/509dfaf56166ca159a05b801383f6014f57f88f1bb600b8df45f02d89cd0903a
