Monero will not be considered a shitcoin until people have a way to transact with full privacy using Bitcoin. If Bitcoin implements a full private layer, then Monero may be seen as a shitcoin.
Discussion
No, it's a shitcoin right now. L1 only needs to be hard money.
Agreed, we only need lightning network to be truly private and censorship free. Then Monero would not be needed anymore. Can you tell me how you are using Bitcoin right now to transact privately? Maybe I am missing something.
Coinjoins and P2P purchases
Coinjoins are weak obfuscation nothing is hidden. It must be maintained going forward, degrades over time, and can be undone with mistakes or additional data.
Amounts and addresses are truly hidden on Monero. There is no transaction graph either.
ecash will augment this tech and enable even more privacy on bitcoin
While I think ecash will be useful for many...
ecash =/= privacy on bitcoin
Ecash is a private offchain IOU
Everything above L1 is "offchain". That's the entire point...
My point is, unlike Lightning for example, Ecash is an offchain IOU not anchored at all to L1 and can be arbitrarily printed by the mint. See the difference?
"enable more privacy on bitcoin" sounds as though the privacy is a part of Bitcoin or tethered to it somehow when they are completely unrelated.
Drop the "I'm gracing you with knowledge" BS tone 😂
None of what you or I am saying is new. These debates have been going on for yearssss
Feel free to hold a monero bag 🤙
Everything is trade offs and incentives. Don't trust mints run by people you think will inflate the supply. Also, a bank run in ecash is trivial to complete and would audit any malicious printing.
I do agree that ecash is an offchain IOU. Do you mine with a pool? If so, that's an off-chain IOU, most likely.
Agree that everything is trade offs and incentives. But if a bankrun is happening that means it's already too late for many.
The main improvements I can see of ecash over fiat is the mint being blinded, FOSS, anyone being able to participate by creating a mint (open and subject to market forces), and that the mint is at least ostensibly backed by a hard commodity like Bitcoin.
I do sometimes mine using p2pool, but that's not how it works with Monero afaik.
https://github.com/SChernykh/p2pool
"There is no pool wallet, funds are never in custody. All pool blocks pay out to miners immediately."
bank run not because there are no funds, explicity to audit the fedimint. Since this can easily be coordinated and executed, there is risk to fractionally reserving. See here for more on the Proof of Liabilities thoughts (not mine)
https://gist.github.com/callebtc/ed5228d1d8cbaade0104db5d1cf63939
I have no idea how XMR works, but it could probably be integrated using the fedimint module system.
Yea I've been keeping tabs definitely a cool project from Calle and an improvement, but it is not a complete solution it only reduces the rugpull risk as he outlines at the end.
That would be dope! This is what FOSS is all about.
I have a question maybe you can answer: When do you think Fedimint is coming out of alpha? (roughly)
Don’t have any hard estimates but I would think end of 2024 might be a good timeframe. Just hit 0.1 so very very early.
That's all you reading into it.
I'm plainly stating facts, but you rather divert the conversation to focusing on my "tone" because you can't dispute it.
Yes, none of this is new, so now you've revealed you're not ignorant just intentionally dishonest.
Irrelevant. You don't have to hodl Monero to use it. Now one is forcing you to choose either. Save with Bitcoin.
In this article they go in depth on all of the current shortcomings of Lighting network. For now at the very least, monero is necessary to anonymize on chain bitcoin before getting on lightning layer 2 or to swap monero for lightning network bitcoin somewhere kyc free.
https://voltage.cloud/blog/lightning-network-faq/lightning-network-privacy-explainer/
Very aware of lightnings current limitations. I never said "Lightning", I said L2 (should have said L2+).
Monero made conscious decisions to favor privacy over decentralization. I think making those tradeoffs on L1 is foolish. Therefore, it's a shitcoin.
No compromise decentralization is the only way to build a viable L1.
Can you point me out the decisions that Monero has made to favor privacy over decentralization? I was convinced that RandomX to avoid ASICs taking most of hash power was actually more decentralised then Bitcoin POW. I thought it was a good solution to avoid having most hash power concentrated in the hands of wealthy mining company owners as is happening with Bitcoin.
Digital constraints on hashpower are fallible. Physical constraints are superior in the long term. Energy is the only truly decentralized/permissionless constraint which can be anchored to.
Have you heard of stratumV2?
Both FOSS.
Both same ballpark of nodes.
Only one of these has decentralized mining that isn't concentrated on large law-abiding corporate mining farms though.
FOSS alone doesn't make it hard money. Most shitcoins are FOSS.
How much of your ASIC resistant mining happens on a CSP?
Have you heard of stratum V2?
I'm responding to your "privacy over decentralization" comment. I didn't say FOSS alone does that and you didn't say anything about "hard money".
Can someone force me to use their crypto against my will? Can I be stopped from swapping or selling it? Can someone stop others from forking it? Am I forced to use only one crypto for every use case possible? Sounds like a free market and that's all I care about. Remember, it was Bitcoin that had a contentious userbase split with the blocksize wars even with no hardforks and *still* had to compromise with the half measure Segwit.
Yea, I've heard talk about stratum v2 for quite awhile now still vaporware and isn't a completet solution anyway. The average person still can't afford to participate in mining to keep the network decentralized.
It seems Bitcoin and Monero's approaches have the same potential problem on the opposite sides of the coin.
The tragedy of ASICs is they will continue to consolidate on farms and grow more centralized and susceptible to state attack. It's conveniently wrapping up Bitcoin's censorship resistance and handing it over to governments over time.