Nostr Web Client

I count myself among the privacy freaks. As I said, I use Monero myself.

But the point is - using Monero is more about signaling. "I am among you". It's no more private than lightning which is more widely adopted. But by using Monero, you show that privacy is important for you. That you are a privacy freak.

Another thing is that privacy is not normal. Normies don't want it. Certainly not if it causes them any inconvenience. That's why we are privacy freaks.

Monero is like wearing a privacy country club cap or polo shirt. We use it more to show off than for practical reasons.

Saberhagen The Nameless 4mo ago 💬 1

I see. I won't deny that there are some Monero users that use it for signaling. Agree that normies don't care either.

Also agree with you it's indisputable that Bitcoin itself is used more, but not completely convinced that Lightning is used more than Monero especially in a private way (not disproportionately using custodians like WoS that can basically see everything their users are doing)

I think there are areas that Lightning clearly excels in when it comes to privacy (i.e. better counter-party privacy + no public fees + no public blockchain) and areas Monero does (i.e. better tx amount privacy from third parties - nodes don't even see partial amounts, besides mining fees of course)

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Discussion

Juraj 4mo ago 💬 2

In lightning you get as much privacy as you want. I don't care what others want. If I was a dealer, I don't care about sender's privacy, that's their thing. I care about mine.

In Monero, practical privacy is difficult simply because of smaller network effect. I have privacy in many of my purchases because of lightning, which I wouldn't otherwise had, because they don't accept Monero. The size of network determines the overall privacy you get in your life. Cash+lightning is pretty good coverage of most of my purchases.

As for privacy comparison, don't forget this: https://youtu.be/-sTT84Up7FY?si=3xHT5lMXY2U8rCqo

Saberhagen The Nameless 4mo ago 💬 1

Sure, but the dealer is also a sender at some point in time and vice versa it's not like you can just be one.

If we're talking about practical attainable privacy I think that is the area where Monero shines over Lightning. Because of it's complexity most lightning users are largely using custodians so their privacy is just ok and probably worse overall than the average Monero user. Similar privacy to a traditional bank where the third party can see your balance and transactions.

I think that is largely why DNMs mostly use Monero. Because despite Lightnings potentially "higher ceiling" for better privacy for advanced users it's more difficult to use that way for the average user in practice and Monero just "works" by default and has been good enough (so far).

Yes, I know it's not perfect and has flaws like your presentation shows. Looking forward to FCMP++ to resolve or bolster some of these attacks. Great job by the way I watched this video when it first dropped and appreciate your content :)

Juraj 4mo ago

Thanks!

about the dealer - I meant that the dealer can have full privacy regardless of the buyers. Sender privacy is actually even easier. So dealer full privacy both for receiving and sending and customers have whatever they want or need. most probably don't need privacy at all and prefer convenience.