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"Privacy freak"? Odd disparargment from you Juraj since privacy is a major theme you push

Isn't privacy a major highlight of Lightning and Ecash, ostensibly? (both of which I use)

I count myself among the privacy freaks. As I said, I use Monero myself.

But the point is - using Monero is more about signaling. "I am among you". It's no more private than lightning which is more widely adopted. But by using Monero, you show that privacy is important for you. That you are a privacy freak.

Another thing is that privacy is not normal. Normies don't want it. Certainly not if it causes them any inconvenience. That's why we are privacy freaks.

Monero is like wearing a privacy country club cap or polo shirt. We use it more to show off than for practical reasons.

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Saberhagen The Nameless 4mo ago 💬 1

I see. I won't deny that there are some Monero users that use it for signaling. Agree that normies don't care either.

Also agree with you it's indisputable that Bitcoin itself is used more, but not completely convinced that Lightning is used more than Monero especially in a private way (not disproportionately using custodians like WoS that can basically see everything their users are doing)

I think there are areas that Lightning clearly excels in when it comes to privacy (i.e. better counter-party privacy + no public fees + no public blockchain) and areas Monero does (i.e. better tx amount privacy from third parties - nodes don't even see partial amounts, besides mining fees of course)

Juraj 4mo ago 💬 2

In lightning you get as much privacy as you want. I don't care what others want. If I was a dealer, I don't care about sender's privacy, that's their thing. I care about mine.

In Monero, practical privacy is difficult simply because of smaller network effect. I have privacy in many of my purchases because of lightning, which I wouldn't otherwise had, because they don't accept Monero. The size of network determines the overall privacy you get in your life. Cash+lightning is pretty good coverage of most of my purchases.

As for privacy comparison, don't forget this: https://youtu.be/-sTT84Up7FY?si=3xHT5lMXY2U8rCqo

Saberhagen The Nameless 4mo ago 💬 1

Sure, but the dealer is also a sender at some point in time and vice versa it's not like you can just be one.

If we're talking about practical attainable privacy I think that is the area where Monero shines over Lightning. Because of it's complexity most lightning users are largely using custodians so their privacy is just ok and probably worse overall than the average Monero user. Similar privacy to a traditional bank where the third party can see your balance and transactions.

I think that is largely why DNMs mostly use Monero. Because despite Lightnings potentially "higher ceiling" for better privacy for advanced users it's more difficult to use that way for the average user in practice and Monero just "works" by default and has been good enough (so far).

Yes, I know it's not perfect and has flaws like your presentation shows. Looking forward to FCMP++ to resolve or bolster some of these attacks. Great job by the way I watched this video when it first dropped and appreciate your content :)

Juraj 4mo ago

Thanks!

about the dealer - I meant that the dealer can have full privacy regardless of the buyers. Sender privacy is actually even easier. So dealer full privacy both for receiving and sending and customers have whatever they want or need. most probably don't need privacy at all and prefer convenience.

TheFuzzStone 3mo ago 💬 2

> It's no more private than lightning which is more widely adopted.

I wonder how many times this will be repeated? Even Bitcoin maximalists and Lightning Network maximalists themselves say that most people use Lightning either custodially or semi-custodially, and that most payments go between large LN hubs, which are ordinary companies, bypassing the nodes of ordinary plebes.

I am sure that even after FCMP++ in Monero, people will still run around the Internet saying that Lightning is more private than XMR. You could call it the "Super Testnet witness church".

> Normies don't want it. Certainly not if it causes them any inconvenience.

And what do you think is easier to use to get good privacy by default, LN or XMR?

> Monero is like wearing a privacy country club cap or polo shirt. We use it more to show off than for practical reasons.

No. I use it precisely because it's convenient, so I don't have to dance around and pretend that privacy in LN is easy and convenient.

Juraj 3mo ago 💬 1

LN is easier, because you can just use it.

I have xmr and want to buy a new phone anonymously? Go to alza, scan the code, click send.

Alza knows nothing about the payment.

With xmr: which swap service am I going to use to pay because xmr is not supported. Will the payment be sent before the expiry of the invoice? If not, how do I get a refund? I don't have the wallet of the target coin.

Practice beats theory 100% of the time.

TheFuzzStone 3mo ago 💬 1

> LN is easier, because you can just use it.

That's not an argument, because I could also say "XMR is easier, because you can just use it".

> I have xmr and want to buy a new phone anonymously? Go to alza, scan the code, click send. With xmr: which swap service am I going to use to pay because xmr is not supported.

This is an example of a merchant who accepts LN but does not accept XMR. The same can be said when a merchant only accepts XMR and does not accept LN, and I will complain and say that I need to swap to pay for the merchant's goods/services.

> Practice beats theory 100% of the time.

Do you admit that individuals' practices may differ?

Juraj 3mo ago 💬 1

Sure, what I'm saying is that ln merchant network is at least 100x bigger. So it's symmetrical in theory, but not in practice.

TheFuzzStone 3mo ago 💬 3

The conversation went in the wrong direction.

I quoted:

> It's no more private than lightning

I still don't understand your logic, in what way LN is more private, because it is "more widespread"?

In any case, if I need to pay for goods/services and only LN is available, I can simply do an XMR->LN swap, or look for a merchant who will accept XMR directly from me.

Juraj 3mo ago

Yes, you can do swap, with the problems I quoted above.

It is as private because of two things:

- you can have as much privacy as you want and you can want same privacy as Monero. No public record of transaction anywhere. And that is regardless of sending and receiving counterparty's choices

- you can actually use it in many more cases, making your financial life more private. I remember at one point a Monero meetup where people were sitting at the bar without drinks. I came to ask if they're ok and they reluctantly said they can't buy drinks because the bar only accepts Bitcoin. So I got them drinks. Many Monero maxis would not do a swap (not very private even, the provider sees the details of the tx, even though they can't identify either party), and especially online, the choice is Monero or credit card. If Monero is not accepted, they pay with credit card. My choice of practical private online transaction is just bigger. I'm not a Bitcoin maxi, I'd gladly pay in Monero and I actually like to do it, but I simply don't have the chance that much. The shop I use most for online purchases (Alza) takes lightning, shitcoins like usdt, but no xmr. I can do swap, but I pay additional fees, I have to wait and hope the swap goes through before the invoice expires (not lightning invoice, just the general payment code expiration due to exchange rate). So for my practical purchases, Lightning is just so widely accepted that it does not make any sense for me to look for other merchants that accept xmr. There's no sender information in lightning transaction, so I just pay and it's private and instant.

So practically, lightning is what gives me financial privacy. Monero is just too niche to work in practice.

BTW: for swaps, I started using Zcash, thanks for your howto, it works pretty well.

I've also done the anypay.today project for this. You scan a QR code, it gets converted through trocador, the source is always lightning because I don't want to wait for miners in order for the payment to go through. One click, instant confirmation and whatever shitcoin the recipient wants they get. With Monero swaps, it's often 10 or more minutes until the recipient sees the tx.

atori 3mo ago 💬 4

But then your have to hold Zcash... At least monero has some potential of price appreciation.

Juraj 3mo ago 💬 1

See nostr:nprofile1qqsxd7rasz53jav2vjlq6twg5wj68lgvm0t4lj79skkka9jju8qfv3cpzpmhxue69uhnzdps9enrw73wd9hszxthwden5te0v9j82mr59ccnsurvw4ejuum0vd5kzmqr63y6e's https://frankbraun.org/zecbag

But no, not really. I also hold Monero only for small purchases, where it does not matter. Bitcoin is the ngu tech

ede3d957... 3mo ago 💬 1

Ngu tech? You serious? It gets pumped by fiat and stabelcoin masters as if fake NGU numbers mattered.

I would not trust my savings with NGU tech that relies on the fiat printer to socially (not technically) work!

Juraj 3mo ago

If there's anything you can rely in this world, it's fiat printers.

ede3d957... 3mo ago 💬 2

Zcash has good tech, but too many flaws in other areas like a dev tax. Use it when LN or Monero (especially post FCMP) are not available. It's still a better private means of transacting than almost all other "cryptos".

Juraj 3mo ago

Especially with the near intents swaps, you can pay any shitcoin privately. Someone wants usdc on Arbitrum? Sure give me the address, I'll pay it right from Zashi.

And there's no CEX involved that could stop the tx.

atori 3mo ago 💬 2

I think Cake is implementing these automatic swaps from xmr into other crypto as well.

Juraj 3mo ago

Amazing, the more, the better.

Only problem is that most exchanges are super slow from xmr, they not only wait for confirmation, but until it is spendable. If you for example have an invoice that needs at least unconfirmed transaction in mempool of target in 15 minutes, because of an exchange rate, it does not work. 2.5 minutes is still quite long, but bearable.

atori 3mo ago

Yeah lightning to shitcoin remains undefeated.

TheFuzzStone 3mo ago 💬 1

With all due respect to Frank, this article does not claim to be objective. It is an article written by someone who has invested in Zcash and believes it has "enormous potential". This is neither good nor bad; it is simply a fact that the article is written in this style.

Juraj 3mo ago

There's no objective investment thesis by definition.

atori 3mo ago 💬 1

So if you want to transact in monero you buy some and then spend? I'm holding 1-2% in monero but am considering going just all in bitcoin.

Juraj 3mo ago

I sometimes get paid in Monero and I keep that and spend it. I don't have a more sophisticated plan. I don't purposefully buy or hold

ede3d957... 3mo ago 💬 2

Not sure if buying a surveillance device (phone) is of any value.

Many people and companies offer GrapheneOS directly for Monero. I bet it's even the biggest actual consumer product market we currently have.

Juraj 3mo ago

Hello from my Pixel with GrapheneOS. Pay with lightning, same day anonymous delivery into a box on the street. I can do the three click install of Grapheneos myself, no need to pay (and trust) someone to do it for me. And no need to figure out anonymous international delivery. And I can also pay in restaurants, buy basically anything. The lightning network accepting merchant network is huge where I'm usually at.

ede3d957... 3mo ago 💬 1

Sounds fantastic. I am using LN myself. At the same time I know that Monero will protect most of my friends and family while LN won't do shit for them although it works for me. Time and knowledge is a scarce factor.

ede3d957... 3mo ago 💬 2

LN non custodially is definitely NOT easier. Custodial LN is a shitcoin.

Juraj 3mo ago

Custodial ln - I don't care as both the receiver and the sender how they use it. Does not make any difference to my security and privacy assumptions, so they might use shitcoin, I get what I want. And I'm not judgemental about the shitcoining of others, that's their choices.

And non custodial is usually super easy these days. Install app, set up backup, there you go.

ede3d957... 3mo ago 💬 2

Don't understand why you'd accept custodial.

Both from a control and a privacy perspective. But you do you.

Juraj 3mo ago

Because they send custodial, but I receive it over my channel and get non custodial. That's how lightning works. I open channels that I want to open and I get my sats through them. Not sure if you understand how lightning works judging from this note...

ede3d957... 3mo ago 💬 2

Sure from your perspective that makes sense. But routing nodes (big hubs/CEX + chainanalytics) know the flows of most of LN transactions even when split. Never forget you are probably one in a million to be able to set up a system like this for yourself - time and knowledge wise.

Juraj 3mo ago

Everyone receives through their channels only.

Big nodes don't see the payments. Not full amounts, not destination. Only part they route (which can be both smaller and bigger than amount actually paid) and previous and next hop. They have no idea where the payment ends (or if it ends on the other side of the channel).

ede3d957... 3mo ago

In theory it works like Tor (even a little bit better), but then half of all Tor nodes are in Germany and Netherlands with manybof them operated by secret agencies. The more they see. The more they can reconstruct. Some routes with certainty others with high or low probability.

Hanshan 3mo ago 💬 1

This is an extremely unfortunate incorrect view.

I use monero almost every day.

YMMV

Juraj 3mo ago 💬 1

Where? How many VPS and VPNs do you need? 😉

Deleted 3mo ago

Monero is about digital cash, the community build. like Maniacs. I don't see that with other projects. And the Monero community shares the same goal.

You can use Monero for your daily life now.

Normies want privacy, its all about education.