What do people think of this? nostr:note13k0wh965nntau3jdx8d3ls96uus2zk778z4w6dyg9r8ptt94e6hsj94y3r It seems that Mastodon is designed to share user posts, including private DMs, with anyone who asks for them. Someone with an AI background pulled in a bunch of posts and analyzed them, including labeling the content.

These folks, Maven, followed the ActivityPub spec and the terms of service. They downloaded publicly accessible data using Mastodon servers and services as designed. They then analyzed that data and ran an algorithm to add labels, similar to how every fediverse server does. The difference here is that Maven used machine learning to add some labels, whereas others add labels such as timestamps when the local server downloads the data without using newer machine learning tech.

Bing, DuckDuckGo, and Google also do this; they crawl the fediverse, use AI and machine learning to label content, and display it in different contexts.

The tags that Maven adds are pretty innocent. They are just adding hashtag-like labels for discoverability.

Furthermore, many people are upset that Maven is leaking people's DMs. This is like living in a house where you refuse to have a front door or curtains on your windows and then getting very upset when somebody wanders in and sits down in your living room or looks in from across the street. The fediverse, by design, has no privacy. DMs are public! It says right there in Mastodon that these aren’t private. Nor are Bluesky's DMs, by the way. There is no end-to-end encryption in the fediverse yet. Evan Prodromou is actually working on this, likely adapting the MLS standard, which is great but doesn’t exist yet.

So my question is this: Why does the fediverse rely on unwritten and undocumented norms that are not mentioned in either the specs or terms of service? And why are people constantly surprised when others don't follow these hidden social conventions?

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This is the reason we made NIP 17 so hard to track even when using public relays.

For those who don't know NIP-17

https://wikifreedia.xyz/nip-17/

Public data is public data.

But public DMs is just bizarre. The should shut that feature off until they can fix it.

This all seemed perfectly reasonable to me (excepting the DM bit) but I guess that's why I'm on nostr.

Mastodon culture is weird because federation (essentially just copying your data around) is at the core, yet anytime someone they don't like wants the data they clutch their privileged pearls.

I will never get over the irony

Someone on the Internet read the data I posted to the Internet. 😱

Someone took a photo of me in a public place without permission. 😱

I think… holy unencrypted DMs, Batman! 😲

As long as Nostr's data is large enough. Anyone can use Nostr's data. At present, there is not enough commercial value for them to explore, but they will come sooner or later. Fortunately, Nostr's DM has been strengthening its privacy protection efforts.

I'm hoping the Internet crawlers to start indexing the Wiki pages and articles/blogs, so that more people are incentivized to use them because they know it's going to be reachable over search engines.

I have discussed this issue before. Why can't Google search engines find the content of Nostr. band. If the content on Nostr can be captured through search engines, it is very beneficial for Nostr's promotion and promotion. #[4]

not searchable via goog is + addvantage

Nah, that's a bug, not a feature. I'm not putting this much effort into my writing to have it seen by 3 npubs in Paderborn.

who submits to goog crawler? or how does google spider crawls relay content?

It doesn't crawl relays, but it can crawl webpages that display notes.

But anyone can setup a relay and aggregate notes from other (readable) relays and publish them to webpages that are indexed.

this fucntion is currently done very few - even 35+ active NIP50 are NOT used most by apps only top 3 to 5 used in searches as per last findings

Only need one person to do it. Someone could just run an archive where they aggregate and store everything forever.

Because people are the dumb and just think things should work the way they think things should work and can't imagine anyone wanting things to work differently.

I really want to highlight the first 5 words of this post but my mobile client doesn’t have the feature 😭

nostr:naddr1qqyrze35vscrzvfcqgsrhuxx8l9ex335q7he0f09aej04zpazpl0ne2cgukyawd24mayt8grqsqqqa28f50qrt

Sounds like great advertisement for nostr since mastodon has been around for over a decade and they just now are realizing their DMs aren't DMs where as nostr has been recognizing and working on this since day one nip. πŸ”₯

I think Mastodon norms are not something I'd care to understand or want to be a part of

I think Maven should interface with nostr

I got the impression that fediverse folks I interacted with before I was banned do not accept modern tech and are generally afraid of it.

Sure seems that way!

Not my business but if you don't mind the question, why were you banned?

Cuz One person called the developers of Nostr Nazis because of their connection with fiatjaf, I defended them. I also actively promoted Nostr.

I were on a server which recently was transferred to https://fedihosting.foundation/ I think due to funding problems - do not register on these instances.

Wow how petty

Thanks for the warning πŸ’œ

It's okay to analyze public info - after all, it's public 🌞

I don’t understand the indignation about this issue! I don't get it! 🀷

I agree. And I don't even think a large part of the Fediverse disagrees, just a large enough group that complains and makes it a big deal

Going back a bit, the design of ActivityPub was a way to bring the idea of an email inbox to the web. It's little known that HTTP was based on SMTP but allowed more features. My original idea was "semantic inbox" which allowed sending rich data over HTTP. This became Solid Inbox, then LDP Inbox, then ActivityPub Inbox. So email but better. ActivityPub added an outbox which is used for validation, Solid didnt have this and went for complex shapes, which are still not fully working. Outbox worked. In Solid we had access control, allowing privacy, all inboxes were private by default. ActivityPub did have that feature, and also broke standards compliance or it could have imported some of the things Solid had for privacy, as was designed. Most of the people in the W3C working group that made ActivityPub had not read the underlying specs, so you ended up with a system that worked but was not standards compliant, which broke alot of potential interop and benefits from features. Now there are lots of fixes to compensate for this. I guess this is the normal course of events, something similar is starting to go on in the NIPs getting more centralized and political over time. Ulimately you either have a standard that works, of you have lots of little hacks to get round the fact that you didnt implment the standard, or something in the standard is broken. The fediverse was supposed to look a lot like nostr, but technial and people problems get in the way. Nostr also succeeded because solid broke its pubsub over websockets, otherwise we could have had one big open web, including the federated model, and personal storage. But all is not lost, we now have bridges that translate from one place to another. Hopefully each can learn from the other, and add features to offer users more choice.

Regarding the Private DM's, we had to issue a retraction. Fediverse clients only started adopting federated edits relatively recently. Prior to that, people relied on "Delete & Redraft", which attempts to send a delete that may or may not go through, and hand the user the content for editing.

In this case, the DM was actually a Public post that accidentally had the wrong scope applied. The time and content matched up perfectly, and the delete request did not correctly remove the content from mastodon.social's cache. When Maven ingested posts, they did so from a public firehose endpoint for that server, rather than use federation as intended.

so DMs = public group chats just between a pair