I completely agree with you.

I also differentiate between religions that contribute and those that contribute nothing.

For example, Islam contributes nothing; it is a religion of war and conquest.

The Old Testament doesn't contribute much beyond the tablets of Moses either; it is a vengeful god.

On the other hand, the New Testament, as I say, is a condensation of Greek humanism and stoicism, based above all on mercy and forgiveness, and I think that is very useful and necessary in the society in which we live.

Reply to this note

Please Login to reply.

Discussion

"Islam contributes nothing; it is a religion of war and conquest"

Two absolutely wrong takes. I respect you a lot, I respect how you seek truth and fairness. I implore you to read about Islam properly, and I promise you'll be surprised by how much it can give, and how peaceful it is.

This take is typical of Western media and Western politicians whom you clearly oppose in many things. Why not give it a learning chance. I'm here to debate or discuss if you wish.

yo, real quick: painting a quarter of humanity’s long-running spiritual framework as “contributes nothing” is exactly the kind of shallow stick-it-on-a-poster hot take we all roast politicians for.

judge by the institution if you must (they're easy punch-lines), but the core ideas? greek logos meets islamic faylasuf didn’t pick up where aristotle left off by accident. algebra, optics, cheques, universities—all spread while clerics were arguing contracts and sipping coffee, not swinging swords.

read maybe ibn rushd or ghazali, then drop reductive memes if you still feel like it. till then: don’t @ an entire religion like it’s a monolith. it’s lazy signal, not actual critique.

I have read the Koran, and I recommend that you do the same.

We Spaniards fought against them for 800 years, we know very well what we are talking about, and now we are being invaded again.

The Islamic conquest of the Iberian peninsula was before Spain and Portugal and you know it. The population there were not called Spaniards back then; they were vandals, hence Andalusia.

So it's not the same lineage albeit being the same land. Correct me if I am wrong. But that's beside the point.

Now, why did they pass Gibraltar in the first place? It's a mixture of imperial hopes of the polity that ruled (Umayyads) and the obligation to free people from earthly shackles.

Now, we can debate the polity ad nauseum, but every empire before and after expanded for different reasons. So, it can't be just Islam as a religion. If that is your case, we're discussing the wrong topic.

For the second point, freeing people from earthly shackles, we can debate. But first let me clarify a few things. Islam's first and foremost idea is monotheistic. Allah is the only God, the same God Jews and Christians worship (the, so called, Father, to be particular). It follows the lineage of the Bible, whether it be books or prophets. It confirms many ideas in the Bible and believe in the prophets in it. As Muslims, we believe that the Torah and the New Testament are the words of God (although corrupted through centuries of translation and people changing/ adding to/removing from it). Jesus is a highly revered prophet, born to a virgin Mary. All these facts about Islam can't be meaningless to you.

So what shackles am I talking about? All these earthly insidious problems are considered shackles; murder, usury, adultery, alcohol and drugs, lies, robbery... Etc. If a society does any of these, as a Muslim I am supposed to warn them and invite them to do better by being Muslim, or at least not do better and remain following their faith. There is no compulsion in religion (Quran 2:256); you're the master of your belief.

Other shackles include taxes, in the first Islamic governments, there were no taxes on Muslims. Taxes are considered compulsory theft and a major injustice, and are prohibited. The only tax mandated is on non-Muslims (2.5%) for protection, because they're not required to join the army, and they're left to manage their own lives.

The original form of governance in early Islamic society is that the government is responsible for defense, execution of rule of law as mandated by judges and scholars, collecting Zakat and distributing it to rightful deserving people, and, finally, ensuring Waqfs are respected and sustained. Everything else is left for the people to manage. I think that's a form of governance you would like, isn't it?

"Islam was spread by the sword" is also not true. Egypt, for example, who's 90% Muslims today, remained majority Christians for 6-7 centuries after being included in the Islamicate.

Another anecdote. Early Muslims handed Damascus back along with the protection tax they took, because they couldn't keep the byzantines from taking the city back. They didn't pillage nor did they rape. They took the land, in the first place, because the byzantines were taking too much tax, and they wanted to free the people from that.

Sorry, for the very long post. I will order the Korean tonight, but I do hope you keep an open mind. @Viktor recommended books, but I will recommend Karen Armstrong's Muhammed A Prophet For Our Times.

I apologize. Didn't see your correction. I read the Koran daily. 😊

It is clear that if you are Muslim and I am Christian, we will never agree on that issue because our religions clash.

That does not prevent us from living together as long as I do not attack you and you do not attack me.

🫂

I'd rather live next to anyone who believes in something than someone who does not believe in anything

The Muslim is required by his religion to kill non Muslims. Once all the Jews, Christians, and other infidels are dead, they will kill those not Muslim enought.

False. Bring me proof.

No.

Stay in your Muslim country and deal with your own.

We don’t need proof, we don’t need to negotiate, and we don’t need to tolerate.

We’ve got history books and we see how Muslims govern themselves today - we don’t want it. Keep it to yourself.

Happy to do so, get your Europeans out of our lands while you're at it. We've seen it in Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan in our lifetimes. The rest of the Muslim world before that from Morocco all the way to Indonesia.

Youe governments and empires are no better than ours. Your governments terorrizes globally way more than a few individuals who claim grandeur from caves.

Like it or not, we're here to stay in this world. Better live with it. Because, at the end, we have lived with Christians in our lands all our 14 centuries. Mixed results for sure, but history proves it way more good than bad.

I don’t disagree with any of the empire stuff, nor Palestine and the Zionists. I want them out too.

You stay in your lands and deal with your own. Youve NOT done that plenty throughtout history, so I accept the Spanish telling you to fuck off because it’s not just Christians you’ve tried to convert - Muslims succeeded in parts of Asia and had to be slaughtered in others to get them to fuck off.

Islam needs a reformation but that can happen in already Muslim countries - we don’t need to see it or be part of it.

I'm in my very Arab country enjoying my time. No point telling me to fuck off. 😂

No one can force anyone to convert, true conversion comes from free will. So, I don't know what you're on about. The Spaniard knows about the the inquisition, I don't need to remind him, but maybe I need to remind you.

Everything you point a finger at, your people did too. So stop calling the pot black while your kettle is whistling.

If you are mad at me because someone I never met, I'm within my rights to be mad at you because of dubya Bush and Netanyahu.

If you're willing to sit down like the civilized person you are and discuss with respect. By all means.

My premise is:

Islam itself doesn't need reformation, your understanding of it needs depth and open mindedness.

Muslims on the other hand, oh well... Won't discuss, it would take a book or two.

Silly and pointless banter aside.. We can get along if you want..

https://youtu.be/sNbtEdcTH8w

Saudara

Jadi lapar saya tengok video ni 😂

There is none to bring

I will bring you nothing.

You have nothing to bring.

Aufwiedersehen Muselmann. I have much but I have nothing for you.

سلام.

You claimed something without backing it with any evidence. If you don't want engage, then don't in the first place. 😂

Be at peace. Smile for the rest of the day. 😊

"كما قلت من قبل. لا أملك شيئًا لك."

Be at peace.

Agreed. Still implore you to read Karen Armstrong's book. You'll have better appreciation for this brotherhood. After all, monotheists should unite intellectually against atheists.

It is not Christians bombing, flying planes into buildings, driving pedestrians over with motor vehicles, stabbing children, parents, and raping both men and women in the name of their religion. Germany, France, Spain, the whole of Europe is being destroyed before our eyes.

The mass immigration from Muslim lands is an invasion. Modern air travel has made it easy for them. Time for the Crusades once more. Each nation their own country.

Disagree re Islam.

It contributes to its adherents.

Whether you like its practices or not, it is a socially cohesive glue for the people in Muslim countries.

I would completely agree that it has no place being practiced in non-Muslim countries; it is a religion without tolerance, poorly adapted to deal with outsiders, and like Christianity relentlessly seeks to convert others even when it doesn’t suit those people (Christianity just does it very differently).

I have no problem with Muslims practicing their religion in Muslim countries.

But I don’t want them being subsidised to come into Christian countries, live off welfare, and then effect their politics and demographics towards their own religious ends. That however is specifically a problem with the Christian countries enabling it in the name of tolerance because its leaders haven’t read the New Testament.

I disagree with this framing, would not say organized religions create social cohesion rather they take advantage of naturally occurring cooperative groups. Then second order effect, supply the optimal frameworks elevating the worst of us.

Organized religions, governments, these are emergent collectivist mine viruses that abuse use and encourage the vulnerable.

Possibly an evolutionary left over from hunter gatherer small tribe days. Which naturally gets hijacked post agricultural era.

I never said organised religion creates social cohesion. I only mentioned practiced religion in my OP and followed up with how Islam in practice, like other religions, does so.

Read this book if you want to know more:

nostr:note1y8vcj9ct77l3wjj6lgh30qn6jupfg6akjcn66clj2qyy8wy8xh7qwctuat

I firmly agree. Each country and each nation should be allowed to govern themselves as they see fit. That said, each nation has a tendency to live beyond its means and so try to conquer others to pay for it.

Religion is shaped by man rather than faith which is shaped by God.