Abraham had two sons. Isaac and Ishmael. Muhammad is a descendent of Ishmael (Ishmaelites). The Israelites (Jews) are descendants of Isaac
Discussion
God told Ishmael he would bless his descendants and they would be fruitful and multiply but through Isaac are his elected people (Jews/isrealites). It’s all in Genesis. One of my favorite books in the Bible.
So the Bible has evidence supporting the rise of Islam?
Yes.
* Genesis 16:11-12 ESV Angel of the LORD calls him Ishmael “And the angel of the Lord said to her, “Behold, you are pregnant and shall bear a son. You shall call his name Ishmael, because the Lord has listened to your affliction. He shall be a wild donkey of a man, his hand against everyone and everyone’s hand against him, and he shall dwell over against all his kinsmen.””
* Genesis 17:20-21 ESV “As for Ishmael, I have heard you; behold, I have blessed him and will make him fruitful and multiply him greatly. He shall father twelve princes, and I will make him into a great nation. But I will establish my covenant with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear to you at this time next year.””
* Genesis 21:17-18 ESV The Angle of the Lord (Jesus Christ?) said he will make Ishmael a great nation. “And God heard the voice of the boy, and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven and said to her, “What troubles you, Hagar? Fear not, for God has heard the voice of the boy where he is. Up! Lift up the boy, and hold him fast with your hand, for I will make him into a great nation.””
Interesting but I don’t think Muhammad had any sons 🤔
Idk if he did. But this isn’t saying Muhammad would have sons. This is talking about Ishmael. Muhammad is a descendent of Ishmael (according to the Bible, I don’t want to get in trouble with the Muslim community if they believe otherwise).
Oh gotcha thanks for clarifying
Yes. Muhammad and Moses both descend from the same man (Abraham) so I don’t get why or how they consider themselves to be different races. The division/hatred between Arabs and Jews is literally a religious one. Most Palestinians and Orthodox Jews have nearly identical DNA. If Palestine/Israel was cleared out and nuked, they’d still probably fight over the wasteland because it’s considered “holy.” Religion is toxic imo and I see very little difference between religion and statism.
Whether there was religion or not it comes down to tribalism. People will find ways to fight each other just because they live on the other side of a line. It’s human nature. Think of how many people fight over sports fandom. It’s not to the same degree as war, but it’s still a form of tribalism.
IMO it’s the Christian’s job to unite Jews and Muslims. No (religious) group is free from sin. Religions get a bad reputation because people hold them to a higher standard. But if you read the Bible, one of the main messages is humans are flawed. We’re so flawed we crucified Jesus Christ…… and the Jews still haven’t apologized for that (lol jk).
Muslims consider all of these you mention as prophets and they all came with the same message and are worthy of being followed. It's just that their teachings haven't been passed on without modification (there are many modifications of the bible but one version of the Quran). Muhammed is the last prophet and his version of the message is believed to be the most preserved. Race has nothing to do with this
Are you sure the Quran has never been modified? Are you sure there is only one version of the Quran?
I am sure because because there is indeed one version. I am not aware of any other version
Who told you there is no other version?
Do you have a link for other versions?
Quick google search shows this. I don’t have a problem with Muslims. Many of them are nice and honorable people but some of the claims I hear them make have not been substantiated.
I'm aware of the different recitations, but the original text shouldn't have been changed. I'll look into this further but that's what I know
I’m not telling you what to believe. But there are people who literally claim the opposite of what you said
Fair enough, you might also want to look deeper into these claims because from what I know the Muslim world believes there's one text (the one printed mostly in Mecca) and any slight modification is heavily scrutinized and rejected. There is an incentive to modify the text and change things in the religion because you can't conform to homosexuals for example if you have a text that rejects this that nobody can modify.
I get you. What are your thoughts on this?
Islam existed before Saudi Arabia and the country is not the arbiter of religion. They will try to change the text because Saudi Arabia is currently trying to "modernize" and detach from religion. I doubt they'll succeed in changing the quran, judging by past attempts that failed and were met by a strong reaction from the Muslim world.
As for the "mistakes" they mention (and I highly doubt there is 2'500 of those), I saw a study that in summary questioned if the quran came down in the Arabic language, who had the authority to put those rules? Because that would dictate how we understand the text, and there are instances where the text doesn't follow these rules, that's a rabbit hole by itself. I'm saying this because these mistakes could be thought of as following slightly different rules from traditional Arabic (if we were to believe the quran is the unchanged word of god)
Interesting. 2500 is still a lot though lol
Not knowledgeable enough to comment but paging nostr:nprofile1qqstc6e4z5chqxvt4heztekcafrvxalezqfx2kxey3kazemnt3kkxfcppamhxue69uhkummnw3ezumt0d5qs6amnwvaz7tmwdaejumr0dsq3vamnwvaz7tmjv4kxz7fwdehhxarj9e3xzmny6w03kv as he's extremely knowledgeable on this topic and I'm sure would love to partake
🫡
The Quraan is and has been 100% preserved. That’s an agreed fact by both Muslims (obviously) and non-Muslim scholars alike. The Answering Islam website is a known ‘anti-Islam’ website filled with a lot of lies and mis-information about Islam. As the the URL name suggests. That website started back in the 90’s, and I’ve seen many times in my life their lies. I wouldn’t take them as a source for anything. What you should do, if you wanted to be honest, is look at scholarly works, not Christian propaganda websites from unknown individuals.
I would be happy to explain how I can be so confident that the Quraan hasn’t been changed, but that kind of depends on you. Are you really interested? Do you really care? I mean, if I prove it’s not been changed, what would that even mean to you? Because if it’s means nothing, preserved or not, then why debate it. So it’s a preserved book…why do you in particular care?
So you’re saying those Qurans from that website and the examples they provide are fake?
Tbh I don’t really care but I was questioning why someone claimed to believe those things. I don’t trust any religious scholars. I trust the evidence i have come across. I’ve seen a lot of things that raise eyebrows like this article for example.
No, I’m not suggesting that whatever you’re referring to is ‘fake’ but I am suggesting that you don’t really understand the topic or the claim. But as you don’t really care, and are only interested in spam posting articles, thinking that’s knowledge, then we’ll leave it there. Experience has taught me never to talk to ppl who are not interested in listening.
I know that Uthman commanded other versions of the Quran to be burned. This would be proof that other modified versions existed. Which, again, was the original discussion and the reason your friend tagged you. Don’t assume you know what I’m thinking. I’m not just dropping articles pretending to be knowledgeable. I take offense to that.
I should clarify that I am interested in why so many are convinced that it’s preserved. But what I meant by “i don’t care” is that it won’t necessarily change my views on religion.
So like I said, if it has no material impact on your world view, then why waste your time (and mine) dropping irrelevant facts that no two ppl differ on? Whatever you or anyone else claims to know about the Quraan came from us. We documented the history in detail. There isn’t anything new you’re going to tell me that we dont already know and learn in our educational institutions, YET…we still say the Quraan is unchanged. That should be sufficient indication that you only see a partial snippet of the image, you don’t know (or understand) the full story.
Anyway, we move on. When, or if, this question means something material to you, and it has real world implications, then we can have a conversation. Otherwise, it’s a pointless conversation and a waste of time for both of us
nostr:npub1h34n29f3wqvcht0jyhnd36jxcdmljyqjv4vdjfrd69nhxhrdvvnsgwr4h0 do you think the relationship between Muslims and Christians is better or worse today than it was back in the seventh century?
Allaah has laid out clearly the path to peace between us and them in the Quraan.
۞ عَسَى ٱللَّهُ أَن یَجۡعَلَ بَیۡنَكُمۡ وَبَیۡنَ ٱلَّذِینَ عَادَیۡتُم مِّنۡهُم مَّوَدَّةࣰۚ وَٱللَّهُ قَدِیرࣱۚ وَٱللَّهُ غَفُورࣱ رَّحِیمࣱ﴿ ٧ ﴾
Perhaps Allah will make friendship between you and those whom you hold as enemies. And Allah has power (over all things), and Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
لَّا یَنۡهَىٰكُمُ ٱللَّهُ عَنِ ٱلَّذِینَ لَمۡ یُقَـٰتِلُوكُمۡ فِی ٱلدِّینِ وَلَمۡ یُخۡرِجُوكُم مِّن دِیَـٰرِكُمۡ أَن تَبَرُّوهُمۡ وَتُقۡسِطُوۤا۟ إِلَیۡهِمۡۚ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ یُحِبُّ ٱلۡمُقۡسِطِینَ﴿ ٨ ﴾
Allah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion and did not drive you out of your homes. Verily, Allah loves those who deal with equity.
إِنَّمَا یَنۡهَىٰكُمُ ٱللَّهُ عَنِ ٱلَّذِینَ قَـٰتَلُوكُمۡ فِی ٱلدِّینِ وَأَخۡرَجُوكُم مِّن دِیَـٰرِكُمۡ وَظَـٰهَرُوا۟ عَلَىٰۤ إِخۡرَاجِكُمۡ أَن تَوَلَّوۡهُمۡۚ وَمَن یَتَوَلَّهُمۡ فَأُو۟لَـٰۤىِٕكَ هُمُ ٱلظَّـٰلِمُونَ﴿ ٩ ﴾
It is only as regards those who fought against you on account of religion, and have driven you out of your homes, and helped to drive you out, that Allah forbids you to befriend them. And whosoever will befriend them, then such are the Zalimun (wrong-doers those who disobey Allah).
Al-Mumtaḥanah, Ayah 7-9
That’s it. It’s simple. It’s that simple.
I'm Orthodox and I've had great relations with Muslims so far, that's why I'm asking. Do you have a translations for the Arab texts? I can't read them.
The translation is right below each Arabic.
i read a highly regarded side by side qur'an when i was in prison in 2014
hah i just realised i only read it once tho
there's a few interesting and bizarre things in there about the moon splitting in two or something at one point, and a tedious section about taxes
I suspect you’re either a liar or think. There is one verse in the entire Quraan that talks about how to give zakaat to the poor, likewise one single verse about the moon splitting, yet your entire conclusion from reading the entire book is just two verses? lol
But to answer your question, Muslims have always had good relationships with other, as long as others don’t raise to us the sword. Not only that, but we, as Muslims, are ordered to be good and kind to those who aren’t Muslims as long as they don’t fight us, kill us or kick us out of our homes.
I’m not a Muslim. But I respect the Muslim community to committing themselves to memorizing the Quran. This way their book is forever preserved.