Nostr Web Client

How much freedom can people have in the long run when they transact on a fully transparent ledger? Talk about Monero.

I think the problem with Monero is that it's like using Tor vs https:// - you need enough "legit" traffic and trade for it to be a viable currency rather than a privacy tool. Incidentally, this is why Tor, for example, is banned at the protocol level within China.

nout 1y ago

Yeah, so far it seems that Bitcoin got the balance right to sneak in some privacy, while not being super persecuted by governments (it's not yet "if you touch it, straight to prison"...)

Bitcoin has to work whether it's persecuted by governments or not. That is it's whole value prop.

nout 1y ago

I fully agree with you. My comment didn't argue against what you said.

Emphasis on the "yet". Also it would make me think hard why governments have no problem with bitcoin.

Another store of value is just being integrated into the current system, with KYC and AML.

There goes the freedom.

Plenty of people still use Tor in China. They just use bridges/proxies or steg-based things like webtunnel to route around that.

And just because less people use it doesn't mean it isn't more anonymous than people using https (anonymity VS "privacy")

I don't know of anybody en masse that uses Tor in China, but I know plenty of people who use VPNs. My point wasn't a direct analogue of the technology, it's the fact that once your tech is a narrow use case, it's easier to target. China can't target regular web traffic at a protocol level because too much useful stuff is there - they have to ban IP by IP. Even bridges for Tor don't work that well in Mainland. https://arxiv.org/pdf/1204.0447

Btw, if we want to be direct, I have never seen an instance yet of P2P trade in China with Monero vs. Tether/BTC. Which is my point. If the liquidity conditions are not met, the tech isn't even usable in certain jurisdictions. FYI, this isn't because Monero are some on-chain geniuses, most "traders" are nabbed by interactions with the Chinese banking system. But in arrests, public reporting, sleuthing on Chinese social media - very little known interest in Monero.

The masses don't use Tor in general. So yea that is no surprise it is the same way in China.

Just because something is popular, like VPNs in your example, doesn't mean it provides anonymity like Tor does though, so I don't understand the point in comparing them. VPNs don't provide anonymity so it's moot that it is more popular. You're just shifting your trust from a local ISP to your VPN.

In the same way, just because Bitcoin is popular doesn't mean it provides anonymity (especially how most use it). It provides pseudonymity at best if used correctly which very few do. Monero is a smaller pool, but provides real anonymity in that pool, especially for receivers which can potentially be any user that has ever existed.

I don't claim to know much about Chinas crypto scene but I'm sure most of them are trading on Binances centralized ledgers just like they do here, so we can immediately scratch any of that Tether/BTC/crypto activity off the list as "using" it.

I think you need to remember that Bitcoin (and any crypto worth it's salt) is black market money at it's core. It's value props are lost on white market transactions where regulators can impose any arbitrary restrictions they want up to, and including, banning those transactions. Black markets are the only permissionless markets.

By talking about as if anything were not "legit" with transactional privacy, you clearly show what is wrong here.

A viable currency which has no privacy is no problem for any authoritarian state. Therefore its not a viable currency in the first place.

Obviously I think transactional privacy is legit, but governments don't. FYI, why Lightning usage is generally banned in China as well.

So the solution is to comply ones way out of tyranny on a transparent ledger?

The solution is to build open standards and networks resilient to all threat models. Monero is not resilient to nation-state level scrutiny, whereas Bitcoin is - and I can point to this simply because Chinese state authorities (including at the time, Vice-Premier Liu He) tried banning Bitcoin left and right but probably has no idea what Monero is.

Nostr hosts a lot of Chinese cypherpunks. None of them ever really post about Monero.

I dont get the logic, what in this example shows Bitcoin is resilient to nation state attacks?

They do not even need to attack it. They just integrate the public ledger, attach digital ID to it and outlaw all transactions from/with non digital ID utxo's.

https://twitter.com/BitcoinNewsCom/status/1721359382745874489

It's not possible to be resilient to all threat models.

I don't even think China banned Bitcoin mining. They banned mining Bitcoin using the electric grid/fossil fuels iirc and only in a particular region.

Only a few manufacturers make most of Bitcoin newest most powerful ASICs and they are all from China. How is that not vulnerable to state attack?

-Over half Bitcoins hashpower is KYC

-It's obvious what you're doing with that ASIC

-Open to targeted mining censorship

Also, these give off a very obvious fingerprint (energy draw, heat, noise)

"Police raid a concealed #Bitcoin mining operation, initially mistaking it for an illegal marijuana farm due to the heat signature"

China's State Council (under Liu He) pronounced Bitcoin mining as undesired, and the provinces started banning and kicking out Bitcoin miners. However, ever since then, people sell miners in Mainland and etc.

"A viable currency which has no privacy is no problem for any authoritarian state." - you shoehorn in one section, and you get the rest. Just like how Github is allowed in China because there's too many useful repos.

Same way BTC is allowed in Turkey, the airport is full of advertisement for a BTC exchange - and at the same time you need to scan your passport to get access to the airport wifi.

It clearly shows that BTC is not a problem for governments, that should make people think when promoting it as a freedom technology.