Nostr Web Client

I am not very technical, but IMO If you peg-in and peg-out the same amount, and in a short period of time, it could be "heuristically" (not sure I am using the word in the correct way) deduced the users is the same.. not sure anyway.

YODA travels 1y ago

Well it can't be the exact same amount because of the fees but I get your point. Still, when you let it sit there in Liquid and do it a random amount of time later and/or maybe in batches the L-BTC to BTC swap(s) should should be sufficient to at least break the link from kraken, right?

IntuitiveGuy☯️ 1y ago

Yeah, I think so, and I used a similar way, withdrawing KYC sats on Muun wallet (onchain cause the exchange didn't have LN), sent them with lightning on a lntips wallet woth already some sats, then from there after some time, back to again Muun via lightning, but different address than the first one, and from there on my cold storage..

In the end I don't think I made my sats completly anonymous (probably very far from that), but at least it's not a direct link. Thing is, with AI evolution, having notKYC sats will not be easy unless coinjoins.

But probably as you said, implementation of Acqua and liquid with lightning.. who knows 😅🍀

YODA travels 1y ago

As long as payments happen via LN in the future we should be good.. there's no way to fully track the LN network imo... what we need is a good way to un-kyc the sats within bitcoin that cannot be stopped and therefor fungibility between non-kyc and kyc sats cannot be compromised... wondering if liquid provides a decent enough solution here. also haven't dug deeper into how confidential Txs work on liquid and how confidential they actually are...

IntuitiveGuy☯️ 1y ago

Indeed my friend!

IMHO in the future (10/20yrs) not even #lightning transactions will be as common as #ecash and #cashu, and these are super anonymous and private.

Onchain transactions will be like now moving funds directly from the FED or a Central Bank, almost none will be able to.

YODA travels 1y ago

Yeah I looked at how fedimints work on a technical level and I must say I'm not the biggest fan of them, even though some parts are really promising/interesting. The fact that if I buy a coffee in another town with a different mint costs me more than in my own community because of the LN fees between the mints somehow doesn't feel right to me.. People are used to buy a coffee at Starbucks in LA and NY and it costs the same...nAlso I'm not a fan of the fact that there's a bunch of people holding the keys for a bunch of others... anyhow... we'll see what happens in the future. :)

ed

ede3d957... 1y ago

You must be new, if in your future the central bank still exists to make on-chain transactions.

What purpose does it have?

IntuitiveGuy☯️ 1y ago

.. not sure what you mean by new.. anyway, what I said was a comparison. Will explain myself better.

In the future I explained, Bitcoin is so distributed and adopted that the avarage person will never ever transact onchain (unless it's a long time bitcoiner or has a big stack). Today you, as individual can't transact with the FED, only institutions do. Bitcoin onchain transactions are very limited, again, if Bitcoin will be used let's say by 2B users, how many transactions every individual could do in a year? Do the math... So how higher the fees will be? Not only that.. if 2B people is using it, means the value in $ is much more what it is now..

So, if now we see transactions of 100/300 sats per byte expensive and you can get more than 2000 sats per dollar.. Transactions will be in that future even higher, in actual dollar terms, just astronomical.

Do you think you will transact onchain in 10/20 years from now to buy a tv, or pay the restaurant? Sorry yo disappoint you, but that will never happen, and very likely your grandkids and mine will never do transactions onchain, since they will never need to move that amount of value, and probably will never have that.. for sure not mine, because yes I am pretty new, and in these 3 years I wasn't able to stack the amount of sats will be needed to have transactions onchain.

Curious to know how "old" are you here..

P.s. the purpose is to separate my money from the State, not to transact onchain.

ed

ede3d957... 1y ago

Very old. But that's not the question.

I was merely laughing about your future where BTC is so prominent in our lives that separation of money and state is achieved, but the FED is still a thing as if it's not a temporary construct/institution that also needs to serve a purpose.

Bitcoiners talk a lot about ETF - ending the FED. But in your future it's the FED doing the expensive transactions?

IntuitiveGuy☯️ 1y ago

No Man I made only a comparison..

2024 institutions transacts with FED = 2042 Me transacting onchain

My hope is the FED went obsolute and being dismantled with all other Central Bankers many years before 2042.

Again my point is, onchain transactions will not be doable by common people.

captjack 🏴‍☠️✨💜 1y ago

swap to privacy coin and re-swap it back

YODA travels 1y ago

I know samourai does this with monero but I havent checked out the fees.. either way, that's at least two on-chain Txs for BTC and I'm wondering if decent privacy is achievable without as well... and from a regulatory standpoint if it's possible to do it all within BTC so it can't be stopped...

captjack 🏴‍☠️✨💜 1y ago

some places/wallet BLOCKS non-kyc bitcoin keep that in mind

YODA travels 1y ago

Can’t stop me from sending via lightning… and as long as I can loop in to my node there’s nothing they can do… anyhow… that’s my point… we need options for privacy they can’t stop… the combination of liquid and lightning seem promising here…

bitcoiner7 nym 1y ago

I have the same question

Thanks for bringing this up

Let's see what experts say

I'd like to think and hope that the approach you describe, which I'm contemplating as well, should give us what is called a "forward looking privacy"

In other words, exchanges where you bought a KYC Bitcoin, will still know when and how much you bought

And they can tell it to the tax authorities for example, to chase you for capital gains tax

Or to the dystopian government that wants to confiscate Bitcoin

However, they cannot, I hope, trace the very utxos anymore

They cannot say "I know this utxo in this address is yours"

So I think it gives a plausible deniability

You can refer to the last transaction they see on a Blockchain, the one you moved sats to lightning or liquid, and say, yes, it was me, I sold this Bitcoin

Or , yes, it was me, I moved to my lightning wallet and then I lost my phone in a boating accident

Well, at least that's my thinking

I'm not sure if I'm correct

And I hope the dystopian scenario will never happen and I hope I will find a jurisdiction with no tax on Bitcoin sale, or find a way to never sell, but borrow against Bitcoin

I want to be legal

Ok, let's see what others think

YODA travels 1y ago

Yeah that's I think the most important point... they know you bought it but they have no chance of saying whether you still have it or where it is...

Boating accident type scenario still possible is the most important thing we need to uphold..

ed

ede3d957... 1y ago

It will happen, before life gets better and society gets the chance to learn from its mistakes.

That's why we moved on to Monero. Bitcoin started it. But it's not enough in tomorrow's world to protect you and your loved ones.

YODA travels 1y ago

We might disagree on this here but that's ok.

While XMR has some upsides in privacy, it has some downsides to BTC as well... my belief is that bitcoin scaling will include privacy options that will make monero obsolete... we'll see.

Saberhagen The Nameless 1y ago

Most of Monero downsides can be side-stepped by simply using Bitcoin as savings, Monero as spending

Bitcoins only real contender to Moneros privacy so far are Ecash/Fedimints. But these are both custodial and mints can arbitrarily print unbacked tokens. You gain strong privacy but give away both foundational pillars of Bitcoin in the process (freedom from seigniorage and censorship/confiscation)

You can keep both and still have strong privacy with Monero

YODA travels 1y ago

That works as long as on chain fees in bitcoin are reasonable, which they won't be forever. If we get a swap from LN or LQ btc to monero and back we might be talking... but I do have serious doubts to to financial regulations that a lot of companies will accept monero unfortunately... that was always the problem I had with designated priv coins in general. IMO we'd be better of to "trojan horse" them by first getting them to accept btc and afterwards adding privacy features they can't stop...

Saberhagen The Nameless 1y ago

You don't swap every time you want to spend

You swap a chunk into Monero that will last you X amount of time i.e. several weeks/months, and spend that Monero directly. Savings vs checkings model. If you're mainly a hodler I guess this doesn't help you though.

What is stopping you from using Bisq, Robosats, or Agoradesk to buy Bitcoin p2p and no-KYC?

You can also just buy Monero first (even from a CEX like Kraken if you must) and then swap into Bitcoin on a DEX or instant swapper. Link to your identity is actually broken this way if you do the random timing, amount split, IP mask thing we talked about earlier.

If regulators don't like Moneros strong effective privacy - they aren't going to allow strong effective privacy layers like Ecash

Feels like Tradfi is reverse trojan horsing BTC lately tbh

YODA travels 1y ago

That still won't work with the 2Mb blocks we have rn... for now it does and it's a viable option.

The question isn't what's stopping me, the question is: what's stopping most people... and that's laziness. Hence the need for implemented privacy improvements to btc.

Saberhagen The Nameless 1y ago

No, once you leave L-BTC it is no longer confidential.

It would be more effective to swap to XMR and back to BTC. Fraction of a cent to transact too.

XMR hides amounts + hides addresses + obfuscates senders

Liquid only hides amounts.

And it's anon set is abysmal.

Just remember whatever you decide to do, for maximum effectiveness...

1) Wait at least a day or so before swapping back into btc. The longer you wait the better.

2) Don't swap it all back to BTC in one shot. Break it up over a few chunks. DO NOT consolidate after.

3) Do the first swap on 'exchange A'. Do the second swap on 'exchange B'. Do this behind Tor or at least a good vpn like Mullvad and/or Change your tor identity or vpn server for each swap.

Exchange aggregator: trocador.app

YODA travels 1y ago

No that's clear.. if it leaves liquid, of course it's not confidential anymore.. it needs to be settled on chain after all... the question is... is it possible in any way to trace back from the receiving address on chain to the buy on kraken if time has been randomized and amount has been altered... my guess is no.

Saberhagen The Nameless 1y ago

The thing I can't stress enough is that only amounts are hidden. It is trivial to see sender and receiver in Liquid so can easily be traced in and followed the whole way out. Waiting and breaking it up does nothing to help this. It has the exact same traceability as doing a normal Bitcoin transaction.

You need to do one of the following:

1) Coinjoin/Whirlpool (Alice sent to either Bob, Charlie, or Dave)

2) Ring signatures + stealth addresses (Maybe Alice sent to [?])

3) Full ZKPs ([?] sent to [?])

These are the only things that would help resist or eliminate tracing. Liquid does none of this.

All someone has to do is follow your first transaction in, follow the multiple branches going thru and out of Liquid, add up the amounts that left and know you are extremely likely the same person.

YODA travels 1y ago

Thanks for clarifying.. Seems like LN -> LN -> loop out will give better privacy. One could let a few sats accumulate on LN, then send to liquid for "semi" cold storage before sending to final CS onchain... LN -> LN -> LQ should sufficiently break the link imo.

YODA travels 1y ago

PS: I whirlpooled what I bought KYC so far but I'm looking to find a cheaper way to do it with sufficient privacy as well.

Kruw 1y ago

WabiSabi coinjoins cost far less in mining fees and provide superior privacy compared to Whirlpool since there's no toxic change created and no common input ownership revealed. You can participate in WabiSabi coinjoins with BTCPay Server's coinjoin plugin, Trezor's coinjoin account, or Wasabi Wallet for desktop.

YODA travels 1y ago

Yeah... no... Hard pass on Wasabi and Trezor's coinjoin feature. ;)

Kruw 1y ago

...why would you pay more in fees to get worse privacy using Whirlpool?

Saberhagen The Nameless 1y ago

Do you mean worse obfuscation per mixing round? Doesn't that depend on how many rounds you Whirlpool? (remixing is free, Wasabi isn't)

This is why I find the bolted-on wallet-based "privacy" of bitcoin coinjoins tedious and constant drama tiring.

It's easier just to press send on a Monero transaction and gain superior privacy to either one with way cheaper fees. Larger anon set and no centralized coordinators involved either.

Kruw 1y ago

While the naive per round privacy expectations from Whirlpool are objectively smaller than WabiSabi (5 input minimum in Whirlpool compared to 150 input minimum in WabiSabi), that's just an implementation detail. There's no coordinator fee charged for remixing using zkSNACKs' WabiSabi coordinator either.

The advancement that makes the WabiSabi coinjoin protocol so much better is that you gain COMPLETE privacy on your coins, whereas Whirlpool links your transactions together due to common input ownership being revealed and toxic change being created during the premix transaction.

WabiSabi coinjoins gives the same privacy UX to Bitcoin as Monero does to Monero 🎭 The only exception is if you are the largest whale in your coinjoin round - since Bitcoin does not have confidential transactions, a whale's coins might require multiple remixes before gaining full privacy.

You can read more from the mailing list post if you enjoy the technical details: https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-April/020202.html

Saberhagen The Nameless 1y ago

There is no coordinator fee charged but you still have mining fees for every round on WabiSabi, no?

Yea I know about the toxic change part of Whirlpool. Seems like a trade off for completely uniform indistinguishable input/output amounts.

While the decreased privacy for the being the largest amount in WabiSabi rounds is the trade off for increased flexibility of input/output amounts.

Kruw 1y ago

Yes, it's a very important detail that WabiSabi does not incentivize free Sybil attacks like Whirlpool does: In Whirlpool, the victims of Sybil attacks pay for the block space used by an attacker, who remixes for completely free. WabiSabi is more resilient to Sybil attacks because the attacker has to pay for the block space they use.

Saberhagen The Nameless 1y ago

Fair point

YODA travels 1y ago

Censored TXs in Wasabi should be reason enough not to use them.

Kruw 1y ago

That's like saying no one should use Nostr because a single relay censors notes. Anyone can run a WabiSabi coordinator just like anyone can run a Nostr relay, stop blaming the protocol for the actions of a single user of that protocol.

goatmeal 1y ago

at some point it won't matter how hard you work on computer programs. you'll have to do something in meatspace to prevent totalitarianism

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