I will be happy to agree with you but I can't, Bitcoiners want NGU, we want privacy, there is absolutely no link between that, they don't care about freedom, they are ready to comply but we fight for privacy and don't give a fuck about regulations, where is the same root ? I'm criticizing the fact they are blinded by NGU and refuse to see the danger of transparency, they will suffer because of that like we are suffering because of privacy, I wish the best for Bitcoiners, that's why I talk about that, maybe some will understand the message, and concerning the increase of purchasing power, don't be fooled, Bitcoin is not a magical money, it's a speculative asset without any real value, it's a bubble, there is no guarantee it will go up forever, be careful, Gold is stronger in case of turbulence.
Discussion
Well you’re entitled to your opinion, there are millions of bitcoiners so I can only speak for myself but I care about both. Many people using Monero are bitcoiners or have bitcoin also. But I get it there are bitcoiners that only care about NGU and call Monero a shitcoin which to me is dumb but to each there own.
Monero is a shitcoin, Bitcoin has always been an economic innovation and was never about privacy, and if you want privacy tools build them on top of Bitcoin or HFSP.
Plus your monero anon set is not great, there are millions of other ways to leak privacy online aside from direct transaction history, and it scales even worse then Bitcoin so it's infeasible to actually adopt as day to day spending currency.
Monero is definitely not safe. Bitcoins open-ledger is a feature not a bug. Moneros lack of a transparent ledger leaves it vulnerable to hiding exploits found.
Bitcoins open-ledger is a feature that introduced traceability and will introduce censorship and unrealized gain tax 🤡
The tech can only get you so far in achieving freedom. Individuals are still needed to fight against the police state
It's a trade-off. That's also what makes Monero more private, fungible, and targeted censorship-resistant than Bitcoin.
There’s a section about privacy in the white paper.
The bitcoin privacy tools are cumbersome at best and I’m not a dev. What is there other than mixing and liquid which is a federated side chain. And is lightning really that private?
Bitcoin still lives up to the privacy guarantees outlined in the white paper. There is no such thing as perfect privacy and there never will be. Each of the layers you mentioned has different tradeoffs and can be used in combination to achieve pretty good privacy. For most people (99%) lightning is good enough.
I mean seriously - the whole world operates based on bank accounts where your full balance, transaction history, name, address, birthday, and social security number is known by your custodian. The biggest problem with that is that you have a custodian in the first place, but all of those other privacy issues are already greatly improved with Bitcoin.
The biggest risk most Bitcoiners face is spending from big UTXOs to people you know IRL who might come for your stack. A small custodial lightning wallet or a single lightning channel eliminates that risk. I can't think of a single transaction that I make where I'd benefit from having Moneros privacy model over Bitcoins economic model.
Bitcoin does live up to the privacy outlined in the white paper but because of KYC and chainalysis privacy becomes hindered.
I’m not trying to convince anyone to use Monero over bitcoin I just see it as a tool. It is easy and cheap to do atomic swaps in and out of Monero. I have also used liquid and lightning and have used whirlpool in the past before it got shut down. Mixing is slow and expensive, Liquid is a federated side chain.
Privacy is a spectrum and people will do what they see fit based on their own preferences and perceived risk.
Exactly. I wouldn't give a shit about people who like to use monero if it wasn't for accounts constantly shilling it and saying I'm not a real Bitcoiner because I "don't care about privacy".
They attack Bitcoin and then get confused and offended when I tell them they are shitcoiners and should HFSP. Any honest person values NGU, the monero cope is crazy.
If they really wanted privacy they would be building it on top of money the world is actually going to use, like the ECash guys are trying to do. Having to use a shitcoin with a whole different currency just to gain marginal transaction privacy is such a stupid model, doomed to fail.
I don't attack Bitcoin itself, I like Bitcoin, most precisely I liked it 10 years ago, and I don't value NGU on a tool created for freedom rather than HODL scheme, Bitcoin was to be used, not held. That's a mess. It's not digital gold and can't be, never.
I don't want to use private L2 if the L1 is not private, this is a non sense, your entry point is compromised.
Btw, when you say to someone: You are a shitcoiner and having fun staying poor... what reaction do you expect ?
Ok says the guy up 105x on any of his 10 year old bitcoin haha
I don't care about NGU, because for me Bitcoin is a tool, and Monero is just a better tool. That's it, nothing else. You know what, I lost them ^^
Honestly, I see value in utility, I don't see Bitcoin to be useful, I remember 10 years ago yeah on the DarkNet people accepted Bitcoin (there was no altcoin or close to be) and it was cool, but now they accept Monero, I mean it's not something I can't ignore, privacy should not be an option, it's very important, how do you want to have freedom and free speech without financial privacy ?
But you also need financial sovereignty to have freedom. If you are broke using Monero are you free? You are more likely to achieve financial sovereignty through bitcoin than Monero. But if your are already there maybe you don’t need to worry about purchasing power you only care about privacy.
sovereignty doesn't mean having a lot of money.
Sovereignty means you are the captain about yourself, you and only decide for yourself. You can have 1 millions dollars without sovereignty but 1 dollars with sovereignty, it's about control.
Like it will happen in Denmark by 2026, there will be unrealized capital gain tax, that means if you have KYC bitcoin and they know your actual profit, you will be taxed on it. You will probably be forced to sell some bitcoin so, resulting in a loss of sovereignty. You are fucked because it's linked to you. These taxation will probably become the norm in all countries over time.
Having precious metals or Monero is fine because it's not traceable, you can spend it without tax and you can say you lost them too, you know the boating accident ^^
I’d argue you’re highest level of freedom is achieved when you have enough resources you no longer need to work as your time is truest the most precious resource and achieving financial sovereignty can not be achieved if you have to clock into a job you hate and never be able to afford to retire.
I understand what you are saying, but having a lot of money on a place where it can be robbed by bank or government is not safe, it's not sovereign because you don't have control on it. It's an illusion, and you are in golden cage. They can kick you out as will.
While I see your perspective it's already been tried. All tech used on Monero was already proposed and rejected by Bitcoin. Ecash doesn't remove trusted third parties. Even Calle, the creator of Cashu, says ecash is not a replacment for Monero.
See look at this clown. Clearly doesn't understand Bitcoin, unapologetic monero shill, and prefers gold. All the "I value privacy over my life" LARPing is just cope from missing out on Bitcoin is disguise.
Privacy can save your life, deal with it.
Btw, you said I am a clown ? Are you serious ? I mean, you just said Bitcoin is not about privacy, but there is a whole chapter "Privacy" on the Bitcoin whitepaper... 🤡
I understood Bitcoin around 10 years ago, and it's why I'm in Monero now 😉
Saying Bitcoin was never about privacy is a good joke thank you ^^
Bitcoiners that care about NGU are not Bitcoiners, they are liars, they can chill MicroStrategy or Nvidia so, they don't care about Bitcoin at all, they invest in it and saying it's the future because their portfollio goes up, and they will FUD Bitcoin if it goes down... that's what I see everyday on nostr, Twitter and real life, I totally respect NGU in mind, but saying Bitcoin is good for privacy is bullshit, saying Monero is shit because it doesn't go up like Bitcoin is shit. The vast majority of people invested in Bitcoin don't understand anything about it, come on, compare Bitcoin and Monero and give me one real technical reason to favor Bitcoin over Monero ?
I’m not here to convince anyone just sharing my opinion. Good luck take care.
Me too, I hope a real debate, but there is not, I push arguments for Monero and wait for counter arguments, it's how we can progress together. Arguments of Bitcoiners are NGU, Monero is a shitcoin (because it's not Bitcoin) and Monero supply can't be checked (same for Bitcoin in fact, but we both trust the code)
My view is bitcoin is a superior store of value and unit of account to all other currencies but lacks in privacy, Monero is inferior as a unit of account and store of value but superior for private transactions. Bitcoin is better for accumulating and storing your earned value over time and Monero is a tool for privacy. That is my view.
And that's an honest view, thank you 🙏
Thanks take care too 😃
That NGU tech that you're shitting on is the innovation. That's what makes Bitcoin a savings technology, and it's why Monero isn't. Scarcity is the innovation, and I can only assume that the Monero creators dropped it because they didn't get it. Privacy is a peripheral consideration. Why would they make it less scarce?
You are far to understand what I'm saying so, I'm not shitting on Bitcoin, I'm warning Bitcoiners that something terrible is coming for them.
Scarcity is absolutely not the innovation, the innovation of Bitcoin was a functional transactional system, decentralized, out of the banking system, by the people for the people. If Monero creators dropped the capped supply it's because it's leading to a disaster, price or fees NEED to rise for maintaining mining profitability and so the network security, it's a long term issue which is leading to even more mining centralization because of halving, and because of that, it's eroding the decentralization and the censorship resistance force over time, it will probably end in a captured compliance network, and there is pretty nothing that will be able to stop that dynamic.