Horry isn’t in the goat conversation 😑
Discussion
Why not? It’s all about rings 😂
Jordan needs 12 to pass Bill Russell too 😭
The straw man here is “all about rings”
I didn’t say that. I said it’s what he needs to edge out MJ. If not, MJ is going to win because… well, he pretty.
Even LeBron calls him “black Jesus”. You don’t see MJ worshipping LeBron.
Why does he need that to edge out Jordan? LeBron is better in every way except for rings. But rings are not individual accomplishments. They are team accomplishments.
Fair enough, i was thinking this is basketball and basketball is a team sport. I guess we can get into the details of what goat means.
If not Jordan, who else is at the top of the hill? 🫤
I think LeBron easily at the top. I’d argue Kobe was better than Jordan too. I’ll take Duncan over Jordan, he was crazy talented.
Is there a definition of GOAT we can agree on? I am guessing thats maybe an easier thing to talk about.
AI definition:
I think the open question here is: has LeBron done “enough” to be “widely considered” to have surpassed MJ?
If you asked me that, I’d say he’ll need 7 rings and do it in a dominant way like Jordan did.
“Rosy retrospection is a cognitive bias where people tend to remember past events more positively than they actually experienced them, often viewing the past as better than the present.”
This same cognitive bias explains why people have a strange affinity toward the old days, that they may not have even experienced, like living on a farm without modern technology (e.g. hot water). These are extremely difficult lifestyles you don’t actually want. If you romanticize the past without objective evidence as to why/how the past is better, then you’re probably experiencing this cognitive bias.
https://video.nostr.build/87f51594551d12692e60f77ea198524001d796a6f324b2f8d60168e65f0fc161.mp4
I guess LeBron is going to have to retire first to take advantage of this bias.
Maybe. Or this could happen instead 😂
😂 c’mon. This looks like grandpa strawman.
If you argue with Jordan fans, their favorite argument is always rings 😂
It’s an intellectually lazy argument that is easily disproven when you ask why Bill Russell with 11 rings, who is a hall of famer, isn’t considered the true goat? Their answer is that era was weak. But the Jordan era was objectively weak compared to today’s era.
I don’t have the stats. But maybe here’s another way to compare goats. Take their stats from only during their championships seasons. And include the number of rings as one of the measures.
LeBron is better in this category as well haha. In the best statistical seasons of LeBron and Jordan’s careers, Jordan averaged 2 more points than LeBron but LeBron averaged 2 more rebounds and assists. They both won season and finals mvp those years. Some other important stats. Jordan never got out of the first round of the playoffs before pippen joined the team. LeBron carried the Cavs to the finals with Daniel Gibson, a rookie, being the second best player on the team. A lot of people don’t even remember who Gibson is lol. And when Jordan left for a year to play baseball, Pippen took the bulls to the semi finals. He took the bulls farther alone than Jordan ever took the bulls alone. When LeBron left the Cavs, the Cavs became the worst team in the NBA. The bulls were capable of being very competitive without Jordan but the Cavs losing LeBron made them literally the worst team in the NBA. LeBron carried his team. Jordan elevated his team.
I had AI do some of the leg work:
Here’s an updated breakdown of the major stats for Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, Stephen Curry, and LeBron James during their championship seasons, now including their Player Efficiency Rating (PER):
Michael Jordan
PPG: 31.1–35.1
RPG: 4.9–7.9
APG: 3.5–6.0
FG%: 45.6%–52.4%
PER: 27.7–31.62
LeBron James
PPG: 25.3–29.8
RPG: 8.5–11.8
APG: 7.0–8.5
FG%: 44.7%–59.1%
PER: 27.3–31.6
Stephen Curry
PPG: 23.8–26.4
RPG: 4.3–5.2
APG: 6.1–7.7
FG%: 43.7%–49.5%
PER: 24.6–28.26
Kobe Bryant
PPG: 22.5–27.0
RPG: 5.2–6.3
APG: 4.9–5.5
FG%: 45.6%–46.9%
PER: 21.9–24.54
I guess this settles all debates boys
Lies, damned lies, and statistics 😂
Fun fact, the 3 point line was shorter during the Jordan era and these other players still shot better from 3 than Jordan 👀
It always comes down to era. GOAT each era is clearer.
To me, MJ remains GOAT. I grew up watching him and hating him (hardcore Knicks fan back then).
No
More than enough
Bird over le bron.
Facts are facts
😭
My case rest on the modern euro player. sabonis was better than any of them today and he was a bench player. Tony kukoc was probably as good as Luka. 🫳
What the hell. Admit you’re anti black Jesus. Just admit it.
Not sabonis, the Jordan killer what was his name. I can’t remember
Sabonis is the European preview version of Jokic. I liked him, but not a Jordan killer.
I fucked up the name. Sarunas Marciulionis he was a Jordan killer in the sense Jordan refused to guard him because he was just too strong. I think those early Europe players were as good if not better than today’s. But the game was not ready for them. It was all post play and clogged lanes.
If we’re judging by flow then Curry is the 🐐. None of the euro players create space like Steph.
Hard for me to say that curry is the goat when he wasn’t even the best player on the team when the warriors won in 2017 and 2018. Durant got finals mvp for both of those championships on the warriors.
The NBA changed during 2 big pivot points in my mind. First was MJ, Second is Curry. LeBron and Jokic are like freaks of nature that changed the definition of what a basketball player is. They embodies the position less archetype.
I would say LeBron was also a pivot point. He normalized the big man being skilled in every aspect of offense. But curry was for sure a pivot point as well. He made it so that if you can’t shoot 3s you’re a liability on offense. That’s insane. Centers shooting 3s was unheard of. Dirk was a pioneer in that regard 😂
Forgot about dirk, yup he gave the Jokics of the world some green lights to let it fly.
Steph & Kobe not being mentioned in the GOAT debates is insane.
Complete misunderstanding of what basketball is for most of em, the rest are paid.
Kobe was too similar to MJ, Steph I can get behind… especially if he loads up more rings 😅
When LeBron and curry team up? 👀
Haha yeah I bet people will pay to see that. NBA are you listening?
You drank the Kool aid on that one - Kobe's leadership & IQ is completely different than MJ even if their moves are similar.
Kobe is the only player on this list to win a chip without a player on the roster averaging 20ppg a single time in their career.
Also the only player to defeat as many 50win teams otw to the chip as well.
Kobe is top 3 for sure but his team was really good. They were very strong in every position and had role players that would be starters on other average teams. Odom, Shannon Brown, Vujacic, Farmar were all really strong and complimented Kobe. Bynum was solid but his career ended poorly because of injuries and probably work ethic. And Gasol is in the hall of fame. Gasol was definitely a top 75 teammate when they won tho.
Kobe should have done everything to keep Shaq around. His legacy would have been better off, I think.
Kobe and Curry are better than Jordan
Someone on the pistons?
Sarunas Marciulionis he only played for a few seasons but he was tough as shit. Jorden refused to guard him.
The fact I’ve never heard of him says a lot about how good the nba was back then 😂
That is how much easier it is today or different. Today’s game is more of coaching revolution than a talent one.
You might be a victim of the rosy retrospection bias 😂
Players today are objectively more talented than they were before. Centers can pass better than magic and shoot better than bird lol
Agree. But what is this talent, I don’t think this is progression in human genetics. It is learned skill base determined by the way the game is played. Thus the argument you can’t compare eras.
Humanity is falling apart so it is hard for me to believe athletes are genetically superior to previous athletes.
Agreed. Most are not genetically superior although LeBron, Giannis, and some others clearly are superior genetic freaks. The difference is in skill development.
Yes talent wise the player has to do everything today to be considered for any playing time. If you are weak at any skills, you are a liability. It wasn’t always that way.
Exactly. Which means that on any given play, the level of talent is better overall. So LeBron getting 4 rings in this era is much more impressive than Jordan getting 6 in his era. People also don’t realize that the NBA was in an expansion phase. They added 6 new teams to the league which is 72 new players that weren’t good enough to make a team before. The new teams were easily beat up by the older teams. That inflated stats and team records. Bird and other older players commented on how weak the league was during that era. Also, Jordan was the cash cow for the NBA and Nike for a long time. They invested a lot of money building up that image to make money.
https://video.nostr.build/412ec0788dac68a48454465b159815df9591f1d7f9920e03d7fbc4a8328838c9.mp4
Peak🤣
😬 that form is horrendous. Bird gets disqualified based on style.
This was the guy Jordan couldn’t beat 😂
https://video.nostr.build/f42d478928f438e9698450d657b1aa90636d6906bc39b74e09a4e54932655b73.mp4