Replying to 789e4172...

You would think. But the US has adopted a new policy by which they are not returning people to their country of citizenship.

Non-Mexicans have been deported to Mexico. A mother of four children was deported with two of her kids, the two others remained in the US. She is not from Mexico. She is a foreigner with nothing, no job, and two kinds. Had they been sent back home, they would have had their family to help them out.

Usually, the process for deportation requires the government to prove the criteria for deportation are met, allows for the defendant to have representation, and requires for a judge to decide on the merit of the case if the defendant contests the deportation. But the US government doesn't follow those rules.

To make things worst, in the case of El Salvador, the US government is contracting the El Salvadorian government to detain people they have deported. In other words they are paying to have people detained in a foreign country without having being charged for a crime.

The US has deported Venezuelan to El Salvador. Some of them were legally living in the US.

One Salvadoran legally living in the US, and has a protected status preventing his deportation to El Salvador, was deported to El Salvador. He is in jail, not with his family. The US government won't bring him back.

That's why due process is important. You can't let government agents decide who gets deported and to which country. With the courts, the process is public and fallows a clearly defined process. With ICE, the process is secretive and arbitrary.

The government is not transparent about who is being deported. Some families discovered a family member had been deported because they saw them in a video filmed in an El Salvadorian prison.

How would Americans react if compatriots where deported to a foreign country without due process? My guess is, they would be outraged.
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Joe 8mo ago

Ive been engaging on this topic for some days, so this may be my last reply.

There are so many people in the US illegally, it would be basically impossible to give all of them due process and also have a court system. Even just 1,000,000 people (and its way more), at 1 hour per person of due pricess, is 1,000,000 hours.. Im not saying they shouldnt get it, but because there were administrations allowing an open border (illegally) this is a mess.

Entering the US illegally is a crime. No other ceime needs to be committed to be deported.

Venezuela will not accept their citizens back from the US, so they had to send them somewhere.

The "one salvadoran legally living in the US", it seems from what I am seeing the guy illegally entered the US, he had two legal deportation orders, and two courts found him to be tied to MS-13 and human trafficking. Also hes an El Salvadoran citizen, so he is back in his country of citizenship.

Americans would be outraged if they were deported to a foreign country, but they are not too worried about that, because they are legal citizens of the US. Trump made that comment about " home growns", and I am not a fan, but I also have no info to know exactly what that means.

I fully admit, its very difficult to get good info, or to even know what is true and what isnt. I also dont want any negativity for anyone, but i also understand why Americans dont like that so many people completely disrespect their immigration laws. I think the estimate is 13,000,000 people who went to the US illegally. Then many need assistance from the government (tax payers). Its a tough situation.

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789e4172... 8mo ago 💬 3

Abrego Garcia is a legal resident of the United States. His wife is an American citizen. He has no charges against him. He has a valid work permit. He is a sheet metal worker.

The federal judge presiding over his case said he has no criminal record in the US or El Salvador, and the gang ties is an unsubstantiated allegation.

In 2019, an immigration judge granted him legal protection from deportation on the grounds that he might be at risk of persecution from local gangs.

The court found his deportation illegal. The government acknowledged he was mistakenly deported to an El Salvador mega-prison.

The Supreme Court said that deportation requires due process and that the people sent El Salvador were not given due process.

"The Government's argument, moreover, implies that it could deport and incarcerate any person, including U. S. citizens, without legal consequence, so long as it does so before a court can intervene," wrote Justices Sonia Sotomayor, Elena Kagan and Ketanji Brown Jackson in a statement released with the Abrego Garcia ruling.

Trump asked Bukele to open 5 more facilities for homegrown criminals.

Personally, I don't think that extraordinary renditions going mainstream is good for democracy.

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Joe 8mo ago

Yes, that is the media's take. I think youll find it to be wrong in time, like most of their takes. But maybe not, and if youre right that Garcia is just a good guy legal resident that was wrongfully deported, then I was wrong. When you have millions of people to deport, youre bound to get something wrong (although Im not convinced this one was wrong yet).

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Vitor Pamplona 8mo ago 💬 2

You will also find that the state tends to be wrong a lot. In fact, I would almost always side against the state because it is so hilariously wrong all the time. That's why courts exist. Because if not, aganst run wild and put everyone they don't like out.

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Joe 8mo ago

Thats true, so we have no good sources of information, yet almost everyone is certain about their facts. Regardless, the US still has a problem of too many illegal immigrants and not enough courts. I dont expect them to just take that on the chin.

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Vitor Pamplona 8mo ago 💬 2

Then let's just deport everyone. All citizens and aliens alike since we are not checking which one is which anyway..

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Joe 8mo ago

Vitor thats just an emotional response. I understand where youre coming from, but it does not address the problem.

Im finding it difficult to understand why so many people think its not a huge problem to have millions of people illegally enter a country. I would hope people could at least acknowledge that, and talk about legitimate pathways to solving that problem.

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Vitor Pamplona 8mo ago 💬 1

Nobody is debating the problem of millions of people illegally here. All we are saying is that we CANNOT let government run free with deportations into slave labor. Otherwise, they will come for you and I in the same way, lying their way to get political points with their bosses.

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Joe 8mo ago 💬 2

I agree we should not let the government "run free with deportations to slave labor", obviously. I assume you would agree that path is not the typical deportation path.

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Joe 8mo ago

And yes there are many people in the US that want to give those people status, so it is a debate.

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Vitor Pamplona 8mo ago 💬 3

The government has unlimited funds to scale up criminal investigations and prosecutions regardless if people are alien or not. They just need to do that and make their case.

This is not hard. It's just the bare minimum they must do. If they cannot find evidence of wrong doing, then leave people alone.

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BitBees 8mo ago

Yes. This is so obvious evidence that “the gubment” is a criminal enterprise that no sovereign individual can either trust, or benefit from. This is not news, it is just much more brazen in this than past administrations.

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Joe 8mo ago

And how long would that take? Long enough for another election? Maybe it never happens then? These would be the concerns of the opposing side. The country voted for the guy that said he would send people home, and pretty overwhelmingly. Think El Salvador. Those people are pretty happy with Bukele, and he had to go around normal processes. I am sure noone wants to go back to gangs overrunning the country. Just something to consider.

We could go all day, but we are going in circles. Ill end it here for me anyway. So long as we have countries, taxes, social security, welfare, etc, I dont think its Ok to enter countries illegally. I do think you should be sent home for that. I dont think a country should have to take it on the chin if so many people illegally enter that its impossible to remove them.

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Vitor Pamplona 8mo ago

Again, the government can scale it up as much as it wants. It's on them to move fast or not. They can decide to just deport people in the usual way by sending them to be free in another country, and that can be fast and easy, or decide to put them in jail. If they go for jail, they need to go through the courts.

Yes, they voted for Trump, but nobody voted to change the laws of the country. If they want to make that proposition, they can go through Congress as usual and let's see what people will vote for. Right now, EVERYONE has the right to due process. EVERYONE.

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789e4172... 8mo ago 💬 2

It's not the media's take, it's federal courts and supreme court decisions, and it's Trump' words.

Due process and judicial review is there to limit things going wrong.

Either the rule of law matters or it doesn't. If it does, the government has to follow the laws and court orders. If it doesn't, the government get to do what it wants.

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Joe 8mo ago

Of course that's the media's take.

So then you must be against what Bukele has done in El Salvador, right? He had to suspend certain rights to clean up his streets. His whole country loves him for it, but if they had it your way, Salvadorans would still be living in a nightmare.

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789e4172... 8mo ago

Trump has always had a fascination for dictators: Kim Jong Un, Vladimir Putin, and Viktor Orban. His latest bromance is with Nayib Bukele, the "world's coolest dictator," as he likes to call himself.

Trump said he would be a dictator on Day 1. And he is delivering.

Bukele is helping him by offering to jail the people he doesn't want, including US citizens. For a fee of course.

You think Trump having the power to disappear people to El Salvador is a good thing.

There are many gangs operating in the US and criminals with no gang affiliation.

So let's "suspend certain rights" and "clean up the streets."

Let's disregard the Constitution and the laws, remove judges, intimidate political adversaries, crack down on journalists and activities, bypass due process, and ignore term limits.

What can go wrong?

I don't share you dictatorial tendencies. It never ends well for the people.