Okay, what's the reason Samourai chooses to charge so much for their coordinator fees compared to how much zkSNACKS chooses to charge for their coordinator fees? Remember, zkSNACKS doesn't charge ANY coordinator fees on inputs 0.01 BTC or lower.
Discussion
The fee is to prevent Sybil attack. Before criticizing educate yourself or 🤐!
Mining fees prevent sybil attacks, coordinator fees do not.
Samourai's implementation subsidizes sybil attackers by having the attacker's mining fees paid for by the atrack victims, allowing the attacker to participate in deanonymization for completely free.
You should read the Samourai docu 😉
It's the best solution we have, and the best team. Censoring TX and working with Chainanalysis is anti freedom tech, it's a nogo.
Not much else to add tbh... If you know what Chainanalysis is then Wasabi is a NO-go. Funny to see people trying to defend it
Stop your bull shit word playing once again let me explain it to you.
Pool fee is for paying Samourai. Dual purpose of paying them for the software development, liquidity management as well as making it expensive to Sybil attack mixes. The miner fees pay for your txs yes as there'll be a few when you whirlpool.
Coinjoin wouldn't work without pool fees. It is primarily a sybil attack prevention.
Whirlpool is different than other CoinJoin services, in that you do not pay a volume based fee per anonymity set, but instead you pay a one time flat fee for an unlimited anonymity set.
To put it simply, it costs the same in Pool Fees to cycle 1 BTC or 1000 BTC. Once the pool fee is paid, it costs nothing to continue cycling. With each cycle you gain a greater privacy advantage with a deeper anonymity set. A Tx0 is the transaction your Samourai Wallet will create that splits your selected UTXO’s into the right size chunks for the pool you have specified.
The Tx0 makes all your UTXO's share a tx hash, which prevents them from mixing with each other, preventing an "accidental" Sybil attack from entering a large amount of BTC, Samourai separates the coordinator fee in the Tx0 no fee flagging in the fee addresses.
There are mitigations in place within the Whirlpool protocol. Most importantly is the fact that remixers for each round are chosen randomly. So even with an adversary running a large number of clients, they wouldn't be able to guarantee on a per round basis that they could be the majority of inputs.
A sybil attack is something very specific, IE a single entity running multiple mixing clients which would manifest itself as multiple UXTOs from the same mix.
The remixing incentive is an important aspect of sybil resistance. By incentivizing users (remixing for free) you give them the opportunity to mitigate against the outcome of a sybil'ed mixing round.
Wasabi and Samourai have completely different fee models. Samourai is once only whereas Wasabi gets commission per mix.
Therefore, Wasabi is incentivized to Sybil their mixes.
Samourai Whirlpool provides free remixing (no transaction fees) so you can leave your coins as long as you want in the pool to mitigate concerns
There is structurally enforced liquidity going into a mix. A single Tx0 fee on Whirlpool means you still only get one coin in per mix and don't mix with yourself which makes it very Sybil resistant
Also you are gaining verifiable on chain privacy with a centralized conjoin from external observers - conjoins will always have a Sybil attack as a weakness so you should pick the scheme that gives you the best chance of gaining privacy.
Something like JoinMarket isn't immune to this either as the maker is the coordinator for every mix. "Decentralized" means just the guy offering the lowest fees observes the mix as they contribute to it.
You remix to avoid the risk of getting sybilled but on chain there is literally zero link.
Ultimately though, the Tx0 is a good mechanism against Sybil attacks as it ensures there's an up front cost and for users that are concerned about this threat, they can stay remixing at no extra cost.
what is here hard to understand?
😉
Yep that's me. I'm the guy who tells people how to make their Bitcoins very private for very cheap. What's your point?
I just explained to you exactly how Samourai's Whirlpool is deliberately designed to make reduce the marginal cost to sybil attack rounds to zero: After a one time payment, attackers are able to stay in the pool and able to spy on additional rounds. The block space the spy uses is paid for by the victims of the spying , and there's no way for the victims to even identify this is happening to them.
Wasabi fixes this sybil attack vector since the attacker must ALWAYS pay for their block space, preventing them from passively surveil users in the pool for free. Much larger round sizes (150 input minimum instead of 5 maximum) make sybil attacks against Wasabi's coinjoins even more costly for attackers.
You are correct: The pool fee is for FUNDING SAMOURAI, not for preventing sybul attacks - It is completely optional, Samourai can coordinate coinjoins for free if they chose to. Coordinator fees obviously do nothing to prevent sybil attacks by a malicious coordinator because they pay the fee to themselves.
zkSNACKS does not charge coordinator fees for remixes, but the free bonuses don't stop there! Unlike Samourai's coordinator, zkSNACKS' coordinator ALSO generously offers free coinjoins for inputs less than 1 million sats and ALSO doesn't charge any coordinator fees for change mixes once you do any post mix spending. Samourai cares more about making money than giving their users privacy, which is why they charge so much more in coordinator fees than zkSNACKS does.
tx0 is designed to FACILITATE sybil attacks, not PREVENT them. An up front cost does nothing stop a sybil attacker, a continuous cost stops a sybil attacker. By removing the continuous cost, you give the attacker the economic advantage over the users being spied on.
I'm happy to answer any questions you might have about all of the privacy improvements that were made from upgrading from Zerolink to WabiSabi.
And the fee is not so extreme if you are doing it right ;)
"Not so extreme" fees still sounds like more than "zero fees". I don't think you're going to convince people to waste their sats on this.
Pls study Samourai before you talk bullshit. The thing what all you Wasabi guys have in common is, that you have no clue about how Samourai works, why it's a mobile wallet, how Dojo works etc.
Your own graphic shows that Samourai charges coordinator fees even for amounts 0.01 and lower. Is your own graphic "bullshit"?
You don't understand it, right? I've never said that there is no fee and #[4] explained you the reason for the fees.
If you are looking for freedom tech, than Wasabi is a no NoGo and the way to go is Samourai / Whirlpool. Fact.
No, I do understand your graphic: It shows Samourai charges fees for the 0.01 and 0.001 pools.
zkSNACKS chooses not charge their users to make amounts these small private.
The major difference between whirlpool and wasabi is that wasabi is not zerolink and whirlpool is 100% entropy, so many of the issues with wasabi's mix composition do not apply to whirlpool.
Wasabi made little effort to stop a user from spending the unmixed change with their mixed outputs. In fact it encouraged this with a "select all" button that spends the entirety of the wallet balance, mixed and unmixed in the same tx, which undoes all the mixing. Unmixed change can also reduce user anonymity sets (toxic recall attack) and de-anonymize users without any user feedback.
Dealing with the different mixed TXO amounts is a nightmare, which is why wasabi purposefully made their coin selection deterministic (predictable), which negates the effects of remixing.
Wasabi also has an address reuse problem. Which comes in various flavors, my favorite of which is the kind where a mixed TXO and unmixed TXO are paid to the same address, which automatically de-anonymizes the user. See YouTube video for explainer.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=alcLdBsoDDg
De-anonymizing users with the above issues does not require "compromised XPUBs", which seems to be the only gripe by The Kliq against Samourai.
Whirlpool, being 100% entropy, does not have the problems discussed above.
There is no unmixed change in WabiSabi coinjoins, while there is traceable change left behind from Whirlpool tx0 transactions.
WabiSabi: mempool.space/tx/01a1a055719129397fb8344b5a09e6cfe72868c8e1d750e621d8b580c96bf77b
Whirlpool: mempool.space/tx/1825e9f7f0548fb4957d389b20e0e46d1ccc9ee50a75ebd19f7a49cdee761e50
If you still use wasabi it means you don’t understand zerolink protocol period!
Samourai stands for freedom and privacy. They have the best team. Just ignore the noise. Route around the rest.
You don't seem to understand. Whirlpool transactions can easily be unmixed to reveal the traceable change. Here's where I tracked the change from the Whirlpool entrants:
bc1qwdunzeuh7csqgj7eemz87udqpnjmzaugaa5gvj has 0.00013365 BTC in change that belongs to bc1qapz2y95uvmcp64z9edsp44x35dqrgeq3rnytud which is the third input in the whirlpool tx. This is completely revealed by the tx0 that created it: b787184c44e482d0ca56562a6f01bd78b35a3471783d03c8db4bb3894e9f6d89
bc1qa58fvu80y6k2ana8f0893uuqqc0zm97nmuzezn has 0.11149586 in change that belongs to bc1q3dyxkm2dcf8jh6rl9z272vduwzutz225v5a8hd which is the fourth input in the whirlpool tx. This is completely revealed by the tx0 that created it: f1b351e3741fbe76ccd6420f5af070a6654de2d5494b05b6b05ede88f227604f
I still use Wasabi and I feel like I have a decent understanding of ZeroLink, mainly because I invented it.